Eagle real or fake?

[ppratt]

I found this some time ago in SW PA some time ago when I used to have time to hunt. Not sure what to think about it. My buddies and I used to throw down a point on the ground when the other wasn't looking then tell them it was a joke or something after they were all pumped up about the find. Well I found this one all by myself one day and it wasn't out in the open. It just got done raining and just the White tip of the wing was sticking out. I thought my buddies pulled one on me but none of them said anything and they all want it. I even gave them a call before I posted it so I would look to much like a fool. Years later they still claim they didn't do it and only a few had permission to hunt this place. I have found many points and dug many pits and found / seen anything like this. What do you think?

 

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[The Grim Reaper]

We have this debate on here all the time and it usually goes both ways as to real or fake. It's pretty much common knowledge among the collecting community that 99.99999999% of those are fakes and were mostly tourist items. They have been around for as long as people have collected. I have some books from the 1940's and one from the late 1800's that show these and dicuss them being fakes and novelties. I know you said you found it and I don't doubt your word on it, but chances are someone has planted it there to be found.

 

[ppratt]

So you have seen these before? If so what the heck is it called so I can look it up?

 

[Tnmountains]

Might try the search feature I know in the last year another one was posted as well. The fakers have really messed us up on this one . I am sure that eagle effigy's are something that the ancients made as well. Turtles are another known knapped item found.
Sorry wish I could be of more help.
TnMtns

 

[ppratt]

I will search but what the heck is it called so I can search it

 

[Flintfinder of Mo.]

They are called thunderbird effigys. I dont belive in them, and think it could be fake as well. Planted for someone to find. JMO...
John

 

[ppratt]

I am to new to this and been out of indian artifacts for some time now, So I dont have a opinion that holds any water, so why don't people like or believe in these?

 

[Flintfinder of Mo.]

Again this is just my opinion....I dont belive in them because I've never seen a real one. I've never seen an insitu of one being found. I dont know of any arcys that have ever documented one found in a dig. I dont even know if I've ever seen one at a show, due to the policing of fakes. Like SRV said 99.9% are indeed fake. I am not saying that that is a fake for sure, because it could be the 1st real one I have layed eyes on. After many years of debating this with other members of several artifact forums, I just dont buy the thunderbird effigy theory at all. Not trying to tick you off, just trying to help
John

 

[ppratt]

No ticking off here I just like to here ideas. You have a good solid argument. I know coins not atrifacts.

 

[dblski]

Hey man please send it off to be authenticated. I know people who have found these, but they don't know whether they are real or fake. I can see how it started out as an arrowhead, then worked in to what it is, would love to see if a native american sat around and did that, or some jacka** who thought it would be funny to fool someone.
Jake

 

[Lone Star]

ppratt,
I see a possible Eccentric point. I don't see no dang bird. That is assuming it's real. If someone tried to make a "thunderbird" effigy and pass it off as real, they might as well call it a bottle opener for all the credibility it would have. I've seen plenty of Eccentrics on shelves as well as come out of the ground to know they have a history. No one to date that I'm aware of has ever produced a confirmed and documented prehistoric flint bird effigy of any sort. G.

 

[ppratt]

Realy no bird, wow I guess I always saw a bird. I guess I can see what your talking about. I guess I have to look at it from everyone angle. Are there grading services loike coin services I can send things off too? Do they put them in a capsule like they do coins?

 

[Jonzer]

I've seen these before too.
It would be a great artifact if it were real.

 

[steve71]

i dont think its authentic but you could send it to dwain rogers 4102 birch blvd temple texas he is texas best authenticator.with like 25dollars he might kill it for ya.can you see any eagle looking thing in this?it looks like one to me and its worked all the way around it.cave find vanderpool texas area personal find.there is a thunderbird in museum in i think it was mandan nd.myans made all kinds of effigies.why not other indians

 

[Lone Star]

PPratt, I don't know. I wasn't trying to be a butt-head , It's a fine looking artifact none the less, I would have messed all over myself had I found it, no doubt. The workmanship and color is nice as well as the symmetry. The Tag of a bird effigy may not be accurate. You can also Email Dwain a picture and ask if he'd be willing to check it out. He advertises in all the flint related venues so he'd be easy to call or contact. You can also google him. He's the best around no doubt. I wouldn't send it cold without him knowing it's coming. When and if you do send it, insure it too. If it's a prehistoric piece, regardless of what it is, it would be worth it. Thanks for sharing the pictures. G.

 

[Adena_man]

Hey Ppratt,

You might want to have it authenticated by someone. The majority of thunderbirds are modern. That doesn't mean however, that all are modern. I had an experience a few years ago where the local sportman's club that I belonged to had a knapp-in. They made over 100 thunderbirds and proceeded to hide them in the nearby plowed fields for the kids to find during their arrowhead hunt the next day. I know that not all of the thunderbirds were recovered during the hunt, so someday someone who knows nothing about the knapp-in will stumble across one and think that it is ancient. I'm sure the club meant well, but they were not thinking about the fact that all of the thunderbirds were going to be recovered.

Your find could be from the same type of situation or it could be authentic. I would have it looked at by an authenticator to be sure. I just wouldn't want you to get your hopes up.

Good luck!

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Here you go Ppratt. Check out these links.


http://www.chichesterinc.com/FlintShapes.htm

http://www.americanarrowheads.com/id13.html

 

[coteau]

Steve71, there is a thunderbird effigy made from mussel shell at the State Museum in Bismarck, ND. Shell and bone thunderbird effigies are well documented in the Dakotas and northwestern Iowa. The effigies come from prehistoric Mandan/Hidatsa village sites and date from AD 1000-1500. For some reason the ancestors of the Mandans and Hidatsas quit making thunderbird effigies by about AD 1500. After 1500 the Mandans/Hidatsas made different types of bird effigies. Examples are bird head carvings with handles, like the ones larson1951 finds.

There is a thunderbird from ND in Hothem's book, Rare and Unusual Indian Artifacts. The effigy is most likely from a prehistoric Mandan site and probably dates from AD 1200-1400.

There are a few excellent articles on thunderbirds from the Northern Plains. One book that most folks should be able to find/purchase is, Plains Village Archaeology: Bison Hunting Farmers in the Central and Northern Plains, 2007. Chapter nine, Thunderbird Effigies from Plains Village Sites in the Northern Great Plains, has tons of info for those interested in learning about authentic thunderbirds.

I have never heard of any reported flint thunderbirds in archaeological sites. I'm sure that there are authentic ones, though, but they're not in the archy literature that I am aware of...

Here are a couple pics of shell thunderbird effigies from prehistoric Mandan sites in North Dakota.

 

[steve71]

thanks for the pics coteau, i was in mandan 25+years ago we went to the indian sites over there and some moonlight bowling

 

[YFZINTHEWOODS]

What do you guys think about this?? It was founf by a family friend near my house. It is the most authentic looking one I have seen, the flint even looks like it has eroded some on the edge near the head...