e-mailed the Sheriff

[Vancouver Larry]

I have been trying, for the last many months, to find the law about MDing in Clark County Washington, So I called the sheriff, actualy I e-mailed them.
I got an e-mail back the same day.
They said to the best of thier knowledge there is no law or ordinance against MDing in this county.
My next trip will be to the Police and check the locals.
I have already checked the county clerk to see if there were any forms that need to be filled out beforehand, nothing so far.
The only thing I've found so far are the state parks, restrict the area to be detected and a prior request has to be filed, (the areas they allow have probably been gane over hundreds of times.)
I'm thinking I am overkilling this thing.

 

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[OldNBroken]

I'll be at Fort Columbia this weekend. Might be interesting, we'll see.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

I'm thinking I am overkilling this thing.

I think so too. If you are skittish about potential rules/laws about md'ing, why didn't you just look them up for yourself? (just curious). Most every city & county nowadays (and certainly all the states), have websites. And on there, will be listed the codes, rules, laws, etc... Even oftentime having subsections for their park's dept's section. And there you should find the park's-specific section: dogs on leash only, no alcahol, closes at sunset, etc .... If you see nothing specific forbidding metal detecting .... then gee, I guess it's not dis-allowed now is it?

And if the city or county has no website, then at a minimum the city or county charter (with the laws and codes and such) will be publically available info. down on the front desk at city or county hall somewhere (because it has to be made available for public viewing). Flip through there, if it's silent on the subject of detecting, then presto, there's your answer.

The reason why looking it up for yourself is more preferable than going and asking a cop or desk-bound bureaucrat, is that there are stories of persons receiving a "no", when no real rule or law actually exists saying that. Ie.: someone morphs something else to apply to your "pressing question" (like perhaps they think you'll harm the earthworms or whatever), and tells you "no". And the sad part is, sometimes that happens in places where detecting has simply gone on, and no one cares. Ie.: the pscyhology of "sometimes no one cares ... TILL you ask". So better to look things up for yourself.

And bear in mind that even if/when you see no prohibitions, that this doesn't mean you can still go nilly-willy waltzing over beach blankets, etc... Because, of course, we're in a hobby that has connotations, and draws the stares of curious on-lookers and busy-bodies. I mean ANYONE can claim you're hurting vegetation (even though you are going to leave zero trace of your presence), and gripe. So of course pick off-traffic times, don't be in the middle of deep retrievals when busy-body lookie lous are watching, don't go in the middle of an archie convention, etc.....

 

[savant365]

I looked up the city ordinances for the town where I live and found this section:

11. Miscellaneous: Any act done or committed or suffered to be done or committed by any person or any substance or thing kept, maintained, placed or found in or on any public or private place which is annoying or damaging or injurious or dangerous to the public health or welfare or safety and every act or thing done, permitted, maintained, allowed or continued on any property public or private, by any person, which is liable to or does endanger, annoy, damage or injure any person or any inhabitant of the City or property of said person or inhabitant. (R.O. 2008 §215.120; Ord. No. 6601 §§1--2, 11-24-03)

It looks to me like this is a generic ordinance that lets them tell you what you can and can't do depending on who you might annoy by metal detecting. Your best bet if you detect in the parks is to dig very carefully and take all the trash you find with you. If you leave no traces of your digging you should be fine. If an officer or official approaches you be very polite and explain what you are doing and be sure to show them the trash you are removing and how you dig and replace your plugs (if they will let you demonstrate).

I was told a couple years ago that the new park and rec director told the workers to tell anyone they see detecting to stop because some dodo here was digging holes the size of basketballs and left dead patches of grass all over the park. Now I plan my trips for Sunday mornings while most of the upstanding citizens are in church and I have never had a problem since.

As long as you are neat and respectful you shouldn't have any problems but there is always the chance that one person who sees you detecting will raise a stink and cause you problems. I think you will be much better off researching the local laws on your own and not questioning a lot of city workers. It will probably be a lot easier to ask for forgiveness then to get permission. The less attention you draw to yourself the better. Good luck,

Charlie

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hi Charlie. This subject: of whether or not "damage" or "vandalism" or "alteration" or "defacement" type clauses *necessarily* apply to us, comes up often. That is, someone may say "well .....there's nothing specific saying no metal detecting, yet I found such & such laws..."

Here's my answer to that: That type verbage is EVERYWHERE at EVERY park, at EVERY level. I mean, duh, of course they don't want people "vandalizing" or "digging up" or "altering" the park, right? But think of it: If you leave the area exactly as you found it (no trace of your presence), then by simple definition, you have not "vandalized" "altered" "defaced" or "damaged" anything, now have you? In other words, all those phrases distinctly imply an end result, do they not?

So we simply can not define ourselves in those terms. Because if you make the automatic equivalence that "metal detecting = vandalism/destruction", well then sure, give it up now. Because do you honestly think there's a single park in the world, that if you walked in to city hall and asked "Hi, can I damage and alter the park please?" that they'd say "sure, have a ball" ? No, of course not. So you have to know that these phrases implictly refer to end results.

Is that to say that some busy-body will not "take issue" with this interpretation? SURE! Kill-joys are bound to come up. And so to do you risk getting flipped off driving because someone thinks you did a lane change poorly. So what. The solution is to avoid such busy bodies to begin with (like your discretion of going at low traffic times on Sunday AM, for instance). I mean, duh, it's like picking your nose: sometimes you gotta be a little discreet. Because let's face it: this hobby has inherent connotations. You can't escape that. If this bothers someone (that not everyone will love them), then they've probably chosen the wrong hobby, or will have to strictly hunt private property, if they don't know how to keep a lower profile. You simply can't expect to go in the middle of an archie convention, and have everyone come up and love you.

 

[Diggit]

Keep a copy of the email with you. And take "Tom's" advice with a grain of salt as you should anyone's.
Don't let their "They're not going to tell ME" what to do arrogance get YOU in trouble.
They aren't the one at risk,you will be.

 

[Minrelica]

I have sent many emails out inquiring about laws in that particular area and although all of their responses said that it was "okay" to metal detect, they also noted that you can't dig holes. I don't mention any digging in my emails but I do say that no ground will be "harmed" and all trash will be removed.

Tom_in_CA, I think the reason that I personally don't look them up myself in a lot of cases is because I think I feel more comfortable reading it in a personal e-mail so I know for certain that I'm not breaking the law and It's also proof or a bit of a permit so to speak.

 

[Diggit]

I have sent many emails out inquiring about laws in that particular area and although all of their responses said that it was "okay" to metal detect, they also noted that you can't dig holes. .

I've gotten that one too. I may be wrong,but my interpretation of that is using a shovel or LEAVING holes, neither of which I do.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Wit, Interesting that you say yourself that even in the absence of mentioning the word "dig", yet .... doh ... it's the knee-jerk mental image that must come to a desk-bound clerk. Because they tell you "sure, but no digging" (even though you never mentioned "digging"). See how that works?

So question for you: In those cases where this is the result you've gotten, do you still detect? Or do you only detect for objects on top of the ground? I mean ... it seems like if you're really worried about this (abiding by all the rules of their reply email), then you have effectively precluded yourself from a hunting spot?

And sure, we should all satisfy ourselves that we're "not breaking any laws". Which is why I advocate looking it up for oneself (as opposed to asking a desk-bound clerk who perhaps never gave the matter thought before you came in). Can't be more law-abiding than to look it up for oneself, eh? And if it's silent on the issue, then there must not be any prohibitions (and no, I don't consider "vandalism" and "alteration" clauses to apply, since those clearly imply end results).

Yes I can sympathize with the feeling of security you feel, if you have a name to drop, and can say "I asked at city hall and they said yes". In fact, some people have gone so far as to ask whatever city clerk or cop told them "yes", to put that in writing. But wow, want to know the fastest way to get a "yes" turned to a "no"? Is to put a legal form under some city person's nose to sign! That just puts up red-flags of legal implications, etc...

But even to the extent that persons, like yourself, have gotten theses "yes's" (and even in writing sometimes), there's stories that have circulated about how confident md'rs have gotten approached by an angry gardener or cop. The proud md'r whips out his paper, or drops the name of whomever he spoke to at city hall. The gardener or cop promptly gets on his cell-phone, calls down to city hall, and gets the "yes" just as quickly revoked. All he needs to say is "well this guy is tearing up the park" (even though that may not be true, you're certainly going to loose the debate).

But sure, sometimes it can work in the opposite way, where when you "name drop", they leave you alone. Granted. It's just that to me, I find the risk of an answer like you received ("no digging"), or worse yet: an outright "no" (simply because they said so), is not worth the risk. Thus I check the rules/laws for myself. If it doesn't specifically say "no metal detecting", well then ....... there ya go

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Oh, and someone may ask themselves

"So what if I get a no. It doesn't hurt to ask. The worst they can say is 'no', and I merely go find another park or city to hunt in".

To that I would say that there is still a repurcussion that can occur: Policies or even new rules can sometimes be implemented, if and when enough persons come in asking. There are actual examples of places where there was no rules on the subject, but given enough people coming in and asking for clarifications, well .... guess we better "address this pressing issue".

Or maybe not implement or write a new "rule", but it can become policy: Such was the case at a state campground near me:

It used to be detected, and no one cared. Yup, even in full view of passing rangers, etc.... It wasn't necessarily a historic area (campgrounds only dated to the 1920s or '30s), so I guess it was just an innocuous thing that hadn't generated any concern. However, one day a newbie showed up at the entrance kiosk, and asked "can I metal detect?". The confused kiosk clerk didn't know the answer, as it had never come across his desk before. He tells the person "hmmm, let me check". He gets on the phone, makes call hither and yonder to various superiors, looks though his books long and hard, etc... Apparently he finds something about cultural heritage or something to apply. He returns to the window and tells the guy "no".

Fast forward to a week or so later: A friend of mine was detecting this campground, and got booted! And he was being booted by a ranger who .... heretofore ... had never done anything more than render a friendly wave. When my friend went to ask "why" and "since when?", the ranger would only say "because it's not allowed" and wouldn't elaborate. My friend didn't make a scene, and just left. A few days later he was at the local dealer's house chit-chatting. A customer came in, who had bought a metal detector just a few weeks before, to buy another item. As the 3 of them were talking, the newbie lamented to them "gee it's too bad detecting isn't allowed in such & such campground". The dealer and my friend asked him about this, and the newbie related how he'd gone to the kiosk and asked. When they did the math on when he'd done that, it became apparent to my friend that his booting had occured in the days that followed that. In other words, you can see the danger, that a policy or clarification or memo type thing can go out to the rank and file "BOL". In essence, a rule was now "written" where none had (effectively) been before.

Thus is the danger. So when someone asks "what harm can it do" or "I just feel safer", just be aware, that there is repurcussions that can occur. A sort of self-fulfilling psychology of no one caring .... UNTIL you ask.

 

[bigscoop]

Take the e-mail you sent and the one you got back from the Sheriff's dept, copy them and stick them in your pocket (I use a binder), and go metal detect those public county properties that are not restricted and are available to you. If for some reason you get approached, be polite & respectful, show them the letters, and see what they say. Regardless what they say, if they ask you to leave, just say "ok" and leave with a friendly smile. But more then likely, you won't get approached unless you are really causing a problem of some sort or excess/noticeable damage.

 

[Red James Cash]

Dont trust the cops to know the laws, sad but true.Usually if they dont know the law they second guess it. Example I once asked a cop(few years ago,and i already knew the law)if a pistol permit was needed for a 1860 Colt army .44 cap and ball revolver.The cop asked me what it shot, i told him lead balls,his answer was,gee that could hurt somebody .

 

[AUVnav]

http://www.parks.wa.gov/publications/other/Metal Detecting brochure.pdf

It does not appear the Fort Columbia is on the list....

Metal Detect Association of Washington - Short Description for page

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=352-32-235

(c) Limit digging implements to ice picks, screwdrivers and probes not to exceed two inches in width and sand scoops not to exceed six inches in width and eight inches in length, containing perforations no less than one-half inch in width, to be used only on sand surfaces. Any holes dug shall be limited to six inches maximum depth and shall be immediately refilled and the surface restored to its earlier condition.

this is rather humorous...An operator shall not allow any emitted metal detector sound audible to other park users.

Good luck!

 

[OldNBroken]

http://www.parks.wa.gov/publications/other/Metal Detecting brochure.pdf

It does not appear the Fort Columbia is on the list....

I know it's not. Better chance at some decent finds. Will let you know.

 

[Minrelica]

Wit, Interesting that you say yourself that even in the absence of mentioning the word "dig", yet .... doh ... it's the knee-jerk mental image that must come to a desk-bound clerk. Because they tell you "sure, but no digging" (even though you never mentioned "digging"). See how that works?

So question for you: In those cases where this is the result you've gotten, do you still detect? Or do you only detect for objects on top of the ground? I mean ... it seems like if you're really worried about this (abiding by all the rules of their reply email), then you have effectively precluded yourself from a hunting spot?

And sure, we should all satisfy ourselves that we're "not breaking any laws". Which is why I advocate looking it up for oneself (as opposed to asking a desk-bound clerk who perhaps never gave the matter thought before you came in). Can't be more law-abiding than to look it up for oneself, eh? And if it's silent on the issue, then there must not be any prohibitions (and no, I don't consider "vandalism" and "alteration" clauses to apply, since those clearly imply end results).

Yes I can sympathize with the feeling of security you feel, if you have a name to drop, and can say "I asked at city hall and they said yes". In fact, some people have gone so far as to ask whatever city clerk or cop told them "yes", to put that in writing. But wow, want to know the fastest way to get a "yes" turned to a "no"? Is to put a legal form under some city person's nose to sign! That just puts up red-flags of legal implications, etc...

But even to the extent that persons, like yourself, have gotten theses "yes's" (and even in writing sometimes), there's stories that have circulated about how confident md'rs have gotten approached by an angry gardener or cop. The proud md'r whips out his paper, or drops the name of whomever he spoke to at city hall. The gardener or cop promptly gets on his cell-phone, calls down to city hall, and gets the "yes" just as quickly revoked. All he needs to say is "well this guy is tearing up the park" (even though that may not be true, you're certainly going to loose the debate).

But sure, sometimes it can work in the opposite way, where when you "name drop", they leave you alone. Granted. It's just that to me, I find the risk of an answer like you received ("no digging"), or worse yet: an outright "no" (simply because they said so), is not worth the risk. Thus I check the rules/laws for myself. If it doesn't specifically say "no metal detecting", well then ....... there ya go

I should have been more specific with my statement. Although many of them stated in the response email something to the effect of "as long as you are not digging", many have simply stated "as long as no ground is harmed" in which case I'm not doing as long as I leave the spot with no evidence of me being there. The ONLY response to one of my emails that would deter me from hunting parks in that specific town would be a flat out "No, it's not allowed" or anything along those lines. I think I've only received 1 NO and it was for a County Fairgrounds. Their response was, "I'm sorry, we already have people who do that". Not exactly a NO but I'll leave it at that for now and try again some other day.

I do not let the responses give me a false sense of security either. I also highly doubt that I would ever name drop in attempt to impress or prove that I'm in the right. Last year I was hunting a park on a rainy day and a cop pulled up and started talking to me on the loudspeaker. I motioned that I couldn't here him and I approached his vehicle. He told me that I could hunt the beach across the street but not the park. I said "well, here's the deal...." and I explained how a plug is cut and how there would be no evidence of me being there and how I was removing the trash I found. He said "well, okay then but be careful because the next person that stops you may not be so nice." He then told me of a couple high traffic spots I should check out, told me to have a good day and drove off. I had the law in an email and the thought of even mentioning it never once crossed my mind. Despite the fact that I was ultimately left alone by the officer, I packed up right after he drove away. Just out of respect I guess.

I met a guy just a few hours ago that I bought another machine from and to my surprise he was a former Park Ranger in my area and we ended up talking for 3 hours. I was basically told that there were no laws for or against it. He's also a former MP and does ride alongs with the local police and he explained how they have no time for petty things like bugging detectorists and said they also realize that we're not doing anything wrong. [he has discussed the issue with many of them]

Only NO means NO.

 

[Dave44]

I looked up the city ordinances for the town where I live and found this section:

11. Miscellaneous: Any act done or committed or suffered to be done or committed by any person or any substance or thing kept, maintained, placed or found in or on any public or private place which is annoying or damaging or injurious or dangerous to the public health or welfare or safety and every act or thing done, permitted, maintained, allowed or continued on any property public or private, by any person, which is liable to or does endanger, annoy, damage or injure any person or any inhabitant of the City or property of said person or inhabitant. (R.O. 2008 §215.120; Ord. No. 6601 §§1--2, 11-24-03)

It looks to me like this is a generic ordinance that lets them tell you what you can and can't do depending on who you might annoy by metal detecting. Your best bet if you detect in the parks is to dig very carefully and take all the trash you find with you. If you leave no traces of your digging you should be fine. If an officer or official approaches you be very polite and explain what you are doing and be sure to show them the trash you are removing and how you dig and replace your plugs (if they will let you demonstrate).

I was told a couple years ago that the new park and rec director told the workers to tell anyone they see detecting to stop because some dodo here was digging holes the size of basketballs and left dead patches of grass all over the park. Now I plan my trips for Sunday mornings while most of the upstanding citizens are in church and I have never had a problem since.

As long as you are neat and respectful you shouldn't have any problems but there is always the chance that one person who sees you detecting will raise a stink and cause you problems. I think you will be much better off researching the local laws on your own and not questioning a lot of city workers. It will probably be a lot easier to ask for forgiveness then to get permission. The less attention you draw to yourself the better. Good luck,

Charlie

Really? You are implying church people are ruining your day? Would you allow that most Parks and Rec employees do not work on Sundays? So you have not been caught since? Tsk Tsk.

 

[Hot zone]

I have been trying, for the last many months, to find the law about MDing in Clark County Washington, So I called the sheriff, actualy I e-mailed them.
I got an e-mail back the same day.
They said to the best of thier knowledge there is no law or ordinance against MDing in this county.
My next trip will be to the Police and check the locals.
I have already checked the county clerk to see if there were any forms that need to be filled out beforehand, nothing so far.
The only thing I've found so far are the state parks, restrict the area to be detected and a prior request has to be filed, (the areas they allow have probably been gane over hundreds of times.)
I'm thinking I am overkilling this thing.

I live in north Clark county. Fort Vancouver including Grants house are off limits for historical reasons. If you ever find something old no matter where some Archie ain't gonna like it. I found a post civil war Cavalry hat pin in ester short park and a "wanna be"phoenics button of the same era in crown park in camas. I can only guess what can be found nearer to the fort.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey Hot zone, you found a phoenix button in Camas in a park? Cool. What # and type? (ie.: bird/crown style, size, etc...).

I live in north Clark county. Fort Vancouver including Grants house are off limits for historical reasons. If you ever find something old no matter where some Archie ain't gonna like it. I found a post civil war Cavalry hat pin in ester short park and a phoenics button of the same era in crown park in camas. I can only guess what can be found nearer to the fort.

 

[jeff of pa]

I have been trying, for the last many months, to find the law about MDing in Clark County Washington, So I called the sheriff, actualy I e-mailed them.
I got an e-mail back the same day.
They said to the best of thier knowledge there is no law or ordinance against MDing in this county.
My next trip will be to the Police and check the locals.
I have already checked the county clerk to see if there were any forms that need to be filled out beforehand, nothing so far.
The only thing I've found so far are the state parks, restrict the area to be detected and a prior request has to be filed, (the areas they allow have probably been gane over hundreds of times.)
I'm thinking I am overkilling this thing.

Keep at it, you'll eventually reach the right person,
and they will create a Law and / or fee

or twist words like do not disturb the ground to mean no removal of what you detect ,
and no soliciting to mean , no knocking at doors, or asking permission from people you don't know personally

 

[Hot zone]

Hey Hot zone, you found a phoenix button in Camas in a park? Cool. What # and type? (ie.: bird/crown style, size, etc...).

It is just smaller than a dime the bird has a chaff of wheat in the right claw and 3 arrows in the left with a shield on his chest. I tried to Identify it a couple years ago and suspect it was of the Indian War vintage..the backmark is johnson & steel putting it between 1858 and 1875. It looks rather similar to a general service button. I would rather it was surrounded with stars and came from General Grant's Uniform and not from General McClellan's. I have always wanted to Look for McClellan's Cannon though. As I recall the story goes; he had his men haul a Cannon up and down the cascade mountains looking for renegade indians. At one point it broke loose and rolled to the bottom of a canyon. The men celebrated ...to my knowledge it has never been found...Aint that the way of detecting, no matter what you find you can only imagine something bigger and badder...