Deep Thoughts

[Iron Buzz]

(Apologies for the reference to Jack Handey.)

Can anybody explain to me exactly why discrimination and some of the other Deus settings affect depth? Also, why was everybody saying that Silencer can affect depth, until Calabash Digger shows otherwise in his video?

Trying to get to the facts here, instead of relying on the "common knowledge" that we seem to have plenty of.

 

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[Calabash Digger]

I have run discrim up to 10 in my garden and can not find any depth loss at that setting actually it hits the deep targets very well at that setting. . Reativity of 3 has a big depth loss from 2 probably 3 or 4 inchs . Silencer setting I need to do more test with but can crank up to 4 in my garden and hit the deep coins But everyone don't go raising it up that because I have not tested that feature enough to say one way or other. I will tell you the common knowledge thing that's bugging me these days and its this whole iron wrap around thing that's way overplayed imo. I dig iron infested sites all the time and the iron wrap problem doesn't even really exist. I dig a piece here and there ,but I didn't learn the deus the way a lot of others have. I learned the deus opened up all the way and have listened to its nuances on big iron and nails from the start.

 

[Iron Buzz]

I have run discrim up to 10 in my garden and can not find any depth loss at that setting actually it hits the deep targets very well at that setting. . Reativity of 3 has a big depth loss from 2 probably 3 or 4 inchs .

But... why? What is it about those things that cause the depth loss (or gain)? I'm trying to understand the reasons. My detecting pal also tells me that there is no depth loss with discrim until you go past 10, but he isn't able to tell me why 10 is the magic number.

 

[vferrari]

Most of the info is in Andy's book, that's where most people pick it up from. Discrimination and silencer are digital filters, signal processors meant to weed out iron. If you push them far enough they will start affecting non ferrous signals and that's were you start losing depth because the weaker non ferrous targets are usually the deepest (obviously target size also affects signal strength too) so if they get filtered out or broken up you will lose the ability to detect them at depth. Calabash and his super awesome test garden tests have been helping us rethink these nuggets of conventional wisdom regarding discrimination, reactivity, silencer, notch, ground notch, and iron wraparound. It's not that Andy is necessarily wrong, he is probably writing things based on his experiences. I think it goes to prove one of the fundamental laws of detecting. Namely, that there are no or at least very few absolutes when it comes to metal detecting, there are just too many variables.

 

[Calabash Digger]

I'm not a engineer type so I cant answer the why but I can answer whether it does or not will mess with the silencer some more tomorrow. Vfferrai is the techy of the bunch.. he nwould have the understanding of the why of most anyone I know.

But... why? What is it about those things that cause the depth loss (or gain)? I'm trying to understand the reasons. My detecting pal also tells me that there is no depth loss with discrim until you go past 10, but he isn't able to tell me why 10 is the magic number.

 

[Iron Buzz]

Most of the info is in Andy's book, that's where most people pick it up from. Discrimination and silencer are digital filters, signal processors meant to weed out iron. If you push them far enough they will start affecting non ferrous signals and that's were you start losing depth because the weaker non ferrous targets are usually the deepest (obviously target size also affects signal strength too) so if they get filtered out or broken up you will lose the ability to detect them at depth. Calabash and his super awesome test garden tests have been helping us rethink these nuggets of conventional wisdom regarding discrimination, reactivity, silencer, notch, ground notch, and iron wraparound. It's not that Andy is necessarily wrong, he is probably writing things based on his experiences. I think it goes to prove one of the fundamental laws of detecting. Namely, that there are no or at least very few absolutes when it comes to metal detecting, there are just too many variables.

Excellent response! Makes sense when you put it that way. Thanks.

Would it be getting off the subject to ask what the difference between discrimination and notching is (assuming you set the notch for the same range) and why notching doesn't apparently affect depth? If notch does the same thing as discrim, but really does not affect depth, then why even include conventional discrim?

[Edit: I see this is currently being discussed and debated here: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/deus/549838-must-see-video-all-notch-users-2.html#post5496820)

 

[vferrari]

As stated in the other thread, Notch is definitely just an audio blanker based on detected TID. Disc is more sophisticated as it "analyzes" the target signal and makes a determination based on the target magnetic and electric field properties whether to apply filtering. All of that is done in microseconds. Because of the signal preprocessing and post processing after the disc filter is applied, it sometimes gets fooled by such things as target shape. That's why round iron objects sometimes fool the processor into ringing high because the signal processing algorithm wants to favor the telltale toroidal field shape of round objests which may indicate a coin or button. This bias is introduced by the Deus software programmer and is part of the reason no two models/brands of detectors behave the same even if the detection hardware were the same, which of course it isn't.

 

[Icewing]

I wanted a Deus at one time.... My hunting partner has one.....
After listening to him, I almost think they figured out how to give 3 settings 9 names to make the user feel better. It's a great machine but seems massively over complicated. To be fair, I've never used one.

 

[Iron Buzz]

As stated in the other thread, Notch is definitely just an audio blanker based on detected TID. Disc is more sophisticated as it "analyzes" the target signal and makes a determination based on the target magnetic and electric field properties whether to apply filtering. All of that is done in microseconds. Because of the signal preprocessing and post processing after the disc filter is applied, it sometimes gets fooled by such things as target shape. That's why round iron objects sometimes fool the processor into ringing high because the signal processing algorithm wants to favor the telltale toroidal field shape of round objests which may indicate a coin or button. This bias is introduced by the Deus software programmer and is part of the reason no two models/brands of detectors behave the same even if the detection hardware were the same, which of course it isn't.

So, the machine really can tell if a target is round. I suspected as much, based on behavior, but wasn't sure I wasn't simply interpreting something else as that. There sure must be some heavy mathematics behind these machines!

 

[Iron Buzz]

I wanted a Deus at one time.... My hunting partner has one.....
After listening to him, I almost think they figured out how to give 3 settings 9 names to make the user feel better. It's a great machine but seems massively over complicated. To be fair, I've never used one.

That's a deep thought of another kind. Not exactly what I was getting at.

 

[vferrari]

I wanted a Deus at one time.... My hunting partner has one.....
After listening to him, I almost think they figured out how to give 3 settings 9 names to make the user feel better. It's a great machine but seems massively over complicated. To be fair, I've never used one.

Complicated in theory and writing about. Simple in practice. I think the perceived complexity does scare a lot of folks off, but it really couldn't be further from the truth. I basically use two programs. An all metal pitched base mode called gold field and a variant of a full tone based zero discrimination/no notch program called Deus Fast, the latter of which I only regularly vary operating frequency and occasionally the machines variable recovery speed called "reactivity". I typically ground balance in auto tracking mode. The only tedious part is saving your custom programs, which is also actually easy. After that it's just a matter of turning on your machine and swinging away at your hunt site. The hardest thing about the Deus is having to dig up all those awesome finds. XP hasn't found a workaround for that yet.

BTW I use those two programs regardless of whether I am beach hunting, coin shooting in a park, or relic hunting in the mineralized red Virginia clay.

 

[Phishfindr]

(Apologies for the reference to Jack Handey.)

Can anybody explain to me exactly why discrimination and some of the other Deus settings affect depth? Also, why was everybody saying that Silencer can affect depth, until Calabash Digger shows otherwise in his video?

Trying to get to the facts here, instead of relying on the "common knowledge" that we seem to have plenty of.

As soon as I read the title I thought "Jack Handey". Can't help with the question, but got a good chuckle! HH

 

[vferrari]

Elaborating on Andy's book, perspective, and full disclosure - I have attended a few of his bootcamps and actually assisted Andy in a recent bootcamp at his request. He is definitely a 5-tone 8 to 10 disc, iron wrap notch guy. He knew I was full tones, no disc and no notch. A different approach and philosophy yet we both have had success with the Deus. He knew that and graciously let me provide the "wide open" full tones counterpoint to his attendees throughout his bootcamp sescion. The attendees appreciated the two different approaches, but the fundamentals were the same. When we start talking about some of the esoteric tweaks based on Calabash's vids and experiments we are basically at the Deus PhD level of expertise. Remember that Andy's book though chock full of info was intended for the Deus beginner and colored by Andy's philosophical approach to metal detecting that he has accumulated since he was a teenager. He has also written a book on the Minelab CTX 3030. A machine very different than the Deus.

So getting back to the premier technical manual on the Deus, I still pull out Andy's book all the time. Do I use a lot of the custom program settings in that book? No - my philosophy is different since I want to use my brain to discriminate and let the Deus paint the unfiltered picture of what's in the ground. Do my programs fundamentally adhere to the basics of what Andy teaches regarding Deus custom programming? Yes! And I still highly recommend the book AND the bootcamp sessions.

I think that a book update will eventually get published that goes into the Version 4 software and the new HF hardware and pinpointer. I have no idea on the timeline.

Thanks for letting me put that out there.

 

[smokeythecat]

Ok, I just put mine on "idiot" mode. I being the idiot. Anyway, it dug a nickle stuck to a small clump of iron today. I won't complain.

 

[vferrari]

As soon as I read the title I thought "Jack Handey". Can't help with the question, but got a good chuckle! HH

It is a GREAT thread title. I used to have a Jack Handey desk calendar and one of my favorites was:

When I was young I asked my parents what rain was and they said that it was God crying.

I asked why He was crying.

And they said, "Probably at something you did."

 

[vferrari]

Ok, I just put mine on "idiot" mode. I being the idiot. Anyway, it dug a nickle stuck to a small clump of iron today. I won't complain.

You sure as heck know your button backs and shanks at the PhD level, though. Loved your post on those found Rev War buttons in the other thread. Where was that nickel, dirt or sand?

Plus, you must know something because you throw your cast off minies and coppers my way because you feel sorry for me when we hunt together. Lol.

 

[toasted]

I wanted a Deus at one time.... My hunting partner has one.....
After listening to him, I almost think they figured out how to give 3 settings 9 names to make the user feel better. It's a great machine but seems massively over complicated. To be fair, I've never used one.

Ive used one custom program nearly all the time since day 1. Just turn on and go.

 

[Calabash Digger]

I basically have 2 or 3 custom programs I use and change a setting here there as sites dictate.

 

[Iron Buzz]

I wanted a Deus at one time.... My hunting partner has one.....
After listening to him, I almost think they figured out how to give 3 settings 9 names to make the user feel better. It's a great machine but seems massively over complicated. To be fair, I've never used one.

The Deus gives the user the ability to access and fiddle with most of the parameters that the MD engineers and designers generally only have access to. That gives the Deus user potentially a lot of power to increase (or decrease) the effectiveness of the machine as it comes from the box. But having that potential doesn't mean that you have to use all of it... or any of it at all, for that matter. Even if you never go beyond using the preset Deus Fast program, you still have a detector that is wireless and extremely light weight and has a higher processor speed than just about anything out there. Don't let discussions of the finer points cause you to shy away.

 

[Eu_citzen]

The Deus gives the user the ability to access and fiddle with most of the parameters that the MD engineers and designers generally only have access to. That gives the Deus user potentially a lot of power to increase (or decrease) the effectiveness of the machine as it comes from the box. But having that potential doesn't mean that you have to use all of it... or any of it at all, for that matter. Even if you never go beyond using the preset Deus Fast program, you still have a detector that is wireless and extremely light weight and has a higher processor speed than just about anything out there. Don't let discussions of the finer points cause you to shy away.

What he said. Try a White's V3i if you think the deus has many options..
Having them options and using them are distinctly different.

Just like calabash I have 2 or 3 programs I use 99% of time. Only minor on site modifications.