CTX "WATERPROOF" INTEGRITY

[locater]

I have used my CTX for several weeks now. I have used the standard search programs and am happy with it's performance.

One major reason I purchased the CTX was it's much touted ability to detect submerged up to 10 ft. deep. I live right in the middle of the Great Lakes and it would add another dimension.

The first time I saw the gasket and system to connect and seal the battery pack to the control box I was really disappointed! My honest first reaction was THAT"S IT? THAT"S ALL THERE IS!!!

The gasket, in MY OPINION, is too thin and flimsy for such a critical function.

I am NOT a hydraulic engineer, but, I feel that I have a reasonable amount of common sense and mechanical ability.

In MY opinion the design of such a critical connection should be simple, yet overbuilt!! water especially salt water, and electrical components don't get along well together.

The surface area of the gasket and channel should not be just adequate but HEAVY DUTY!! Adequate compression should be maintained between the two joined surfaces to keep the seal tight in ANY WORSTCASE SCENARIO!

At the maximum CTX depth of 10 feet, there is an outside pressure on that connection of 19.139 pounds per square inch, based on sea water density. Compound that with other adverse forces such as heavy wave action over extended periods, and there is obviously a lot of force behind that water trying to get past that seal!!

I personally feel the gasket and channel it goes into into are much too thin. Given the diameter of the gasket, I can easily understand how a few grains of sand could comprimise the integrity of the seal.

I guess the designers felt the smaller the better. Keep the channel small and use a small gasket to seal it, and there is less chance of water intrusion by sheer diminutive size. I can understand that thinking under perfect conditions. PROBLEM!! Things are not always perfect and as planned. $#!% happens!! That is why good designers/engineers over design and over build at critical points, with worst case scenarios in mind!! I don't believe such was the case with this CTX seal design.

If I were designing such a critical seal, I would first of all, make the gasket and channel larger for two reasons. 1) if any foreign material such as a few grains of sand, should find it's way onto the gasket, there would still be enough debris free gasket area to maintain a seal. 2) It would be easier for the operator to clean and maintain the gasket and channel when they are not so small as to be difficult to work with by hamhanded people such as myself. (I'm not a surgeon)

I would also use a better method of securing the battery pack to the control box.

Gaskets, to be effective, require adequate compression to maintain a proper seal. I would NOT use the current latches, I would use a screwdown type fastener to maintain compression of the two surfaces.

I realize that many CTX users have detected with the unit fully submerged with no problems. I also know many others have experienced water intrusion, some attributed to sand on the gasket.

The mindset seems to be that, with ideal cleaning, and ideal use conditions the system works. It's NOT an ideal world! sometimes spotless cleaning isn't possible when changing batteries at the beach, sand is everywhere!!

My point is that the current seal MAY be adequate, but, it could and should be better!!

As I said earlier, I AM NOT a hydraulic engineer, but, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express!!

KEEP YOUR COIL LEVEL AND YOUR CONTROL BOX DRY!!!!!

 

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[Scanman]

Thank you for your honest assessment of the seal issue. I like the feature set of the CTX, and I like the concept of one detector to learn that will do 95% of my detecting needs. But I will have to pass until the seal issue is remedied.

 

[mercury1]

Locater, everything you've said sounds reasonable. I don't own a minelab but just reading on the forum gives me the impression that the design is flawed and there doesn't seem to be a great sense of urgency about addressing it, which I find surprising.

 

[locater]

Hi mercury1,
In practicle terms the design MAY be adequate if circumstances remain ideal. Those circumstances being, that is cleaned perfectly, the tiny gasket is inserted perfectly, it is not pinched when inserting the battery pack etc. I just think it could certainly have been designed much better.

As to addressing it, I'm not sure what can be done! Minelab committed to that design and the gasket channel is molded into the control box case. The only way to change that would be to redesign it and make the channel bigger to accept a bigger gasket. THEN, the battery pack casing would have to be redesigned to make the rim or flange that goes into the gasket channel fit. I don't see that happening. Anything to make it better is probably going to have to be adapted to the current system.

The most logical "fix" I saw was to use silicone grease on the joint to ensure no water intrusion occurs. Warranty issues were suggested if you went that route. I guess it is what it is!

It reminds me of the Excaliber knob issue. I inquired if the breaking knob issue had been resolved last year. I was told that the knobs were "designed" to break because people were overturning them. I was told it is better to have the knob break than ruin the internal control when overturned. That's true, but to me the logicle thing to have done is build a turn limiter into each control to PREVENT it from being overturned. Then the knob could be built strong enough so as not to break. Goes back to my original post. Designs of critical components should be overdesigned and overbuilt for durability, with worst case scenarios in mind.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I have talked to Minelab about the CTX gasket issue, they said there was no plans to redesign it, if the gasket is cleaned and replaced properly it would not fail.... I know some are having issues with failures, but I also know some who hunt in the water with it and not having any issues, but they clean the gasket everytime it is removed and double check it when replaced to be sure it is sealed. They also have replacement gaskets for it so they do not try to use the same gasket forever.... If I owned a CTX I personally would use silicone lube on it as an added precaution.....

I replaced the knobs on my excals (2) with after market knobs a long time ago and have no issues with them since....

 

[Sandman]

The CTX was not designed to be idiot proof. People get sand on the gasket, over tighten knobs, bang the coil on rocks, and such. As you said, water pressure can exceed the pressure at 10 feet with a wave. I feel that the price was inflated to pay for the repairs that would come in. An after the warranty, your on you own to get another throwaway detector. I will stick with what has worked for me when diving to over 100 feet with no leaks.

Save a nickel on the gasket, lose lots of customers and reputation.

 

[locater]

I think in the design phase of many products designers/engineers are too quick to get a product to market! Them thar metal detectorists got pockets full of gold, LET'S GIT IT!! Once the initial design is made, that's the time to sit back and look at the drawing board and think about the WHAT IFS. What if a latch should inadvertantly become undone while operating underwater, I know I'll replace the latch with a screwdown fastener, problem solved. What if I made that gasket channel a little too small to clean easily, I know I'll make it bigger, any remaining sand will be easier to see and a larger gasket surface will provide a better seal. Problem solved. What if I put a turn limiter in the control so it COULD NOT be turned too far, then I wouldn't have to tell you I designed the knobs to break if it is turned too far.

When paying such large sums of cash to purchase these products, I only think it is reasonable to expect that the designers anticipate problems. Purchasers SHOULD NOT have to buy aftermarket knobs etc., to make it right. Once again, in best circumstances the CTX is waterproof, but with a little aforethought in the design, make it easier to maintain, and things like silicone grease would not be needed. Just my opinion, you CLOSE THE BARN DOOR BEFORE THE HORSES GET OUT, NOT AFTER!!

 

[beerguy]

I am on the fence regarding the CTX as well. I would love to get one if there were people raving about the quality, but that is not what I see on this forum.

 

[cudamark]

The problem I see using the silicone grease is that it REALLY attracts the sand. If you leave it "dry" you can blow the sand away with compressed air. You get sand mixed into the grease and you'll be spending lots of time cleaning that mess up.

 

[locater]

That's a great point cudamark. Cleaning the small gasket and channel could become more difficult with silicone grease on it, and as you say, it could become a sand magnet.

Compressed air would most certainly be helpful in cleaning out a dry gasket channel. At the beach you could use a can of compressed air as used to clean computers and such, it would cost a few bucks. It is obviously crucial to get every grain of sand off the gasket, and out of the channel.

Of course you would have to have full confidence in the ability of that gasket alone, but adding the grease which would give that added measure of sealing, and confidence would surley make cleaning MORE difficult than it is already. Wish I had the surefire solution to an absolute guarantee of a perfect waterseal and easy cleaning.

 

[davemcc]

I have talked to Minelab about the CTX gasket issue, they said there was no plans to redesign it, if the gasket is cleaned and replaced properly it would not fail.... I know some are having issues with failures, but I also know some who hunt in the water with it and not having any issues, but they clean the gasket everytime it is removed and double check it when replaced to be sure it is sealed. They also have replacement gaskets for it so they do not try to use the same gasket forever.... If I owned a CTX I personally would use silicone lube on it as an added precaution.....

I replaced the knobs on my excals (2) with after market knobs a long time ago and have no issues with them since....

Cleaned and replaced?? Does minelab provide any recommendations as to how often? Do they expect me to pop a new gasket in after every few hunts at $20 a pop? And the more I handle this thin gasket the more I increase it's chances of failing. Having minelab telling us to handle the gasket sounds almost as if designed to fail is written all over it.

 

[Sandman]

I might have a solution to the CTX leaking. Fisher had a problem with the rubber seal on the pinpoint button on the faceplate of the CZ-20 leaking when the rubber got dry rot. I smeared silicone sealant over the button since I don't use the pinpoint anyway.

What it you smeared Shoe Goo Repair in a thin layer on the seam after you close up the seal? The Goo would be easy to scrape off to open the door to change the batteries. But this is not the best solution. Minelab should provide a thicker O ring that gets compressed like Tesoro, Garrett and White's do to the water detectors.

 

[Jason in Enid]

Just for clarity, your pressure calculations are off. You are giving the total PSI if there was a 100% vacuum inside the battery compartment. Since the battery compartment would be sealed (closed) at roughly 1ATM, you already have ~15 psi inside and ~15 psi outside. At the maximum depth of 10 feet you have an additional 5 psi of pressure on the outside trying to force water into the detector.

All that explaining basically means there is almost no tolerance for pressure changes. I would still love to own one for dirt and beach hunting, just not for water hunting.

 

[locater]

I'll take your word on that one Jason. I got my figure from a website with underwater pressures at depths, I must admit I have no idea what internal pressures are pushing outward. Thanks

 

[locater]

Sandman, I think that is a great idea! In my memories of using that kind of stuff, it does indeed peel of pretty clean. I agree, it's not the final solution, but a worthwhile stopgap measure.

 

[Silverfishin]

I cleaned my O-ring and grooves added a fine layer of silicone to O-ring, install and then replace battery. I add a fine layer of silicone grease to all threads on the main cables and screw caps. Then we go shower together to get clean. No problems here, even had it submerged in a fresh water lake. All good. I put a rubber band around the latches by the battery for extra protection. I agree the O-ring area is a little touchy but there are a lot of CTX owners that have zero problems. I love mine.

 

[Bart@Big Boys Hobbies]

I cleaned my O-ring and grooves added a fine layer of silicone to O-ring, install and then replace battery. I add a fine layer of silicone grease to all threads on the main cables and screw caps. Then we go shower together to get clean. No problems here, even had it submerged in a fresh water lake. All good. I put a rubber band around the latches by the battery for extra protection. I agree the O-ring area is a little touchy but there are a lot of CTX owners that have zero problems. I love mine.

Good post here! I have had my person unit under many many times. I check things over before and after every dunk with 0 problems. I little bit of preparation goes a long way.

 

[nov2101]

Mind if I jump in? I am interested in buying the CTX Minelab. I dive apx no more than 20 feet and more in the range of 10 to 15 feet. Can this unit handle/do it? I always clean out my Whites PI unit channel with q-tip and a little silicone grease. I called Minelab today and any deeper than 9 feet it would void the warranty. Please opine and if anyone has gone deeper with this modal ....

 

[cudamark]

I cleaned my O-ring and grooves added a fine layer of silicone to O-ring, install and then replace battery. I add a fine layer of silicone grease to all threads on the main cables and screw caps. Then we go shower together to get clean. No problems here, even had it submerged in a fresh water lake. All good. I put a rubber band around the latches by the battery for extra protection. I agree the O-ring area is a little touchy but there are a lot of CTX owners that have zero problems. I love mine.

At home, the would work fine when it comes to cleaning everything up. My concern was swapping batteries out in the field where you can't do that. Anyone who's owned and used an Excalibur knows what I mean. That grease really attracts the sand, and if you drop the battery in it, you're forever trying to get it clean enough to use.

 

[nov2101]

Roger that Cudamark, how deep have you dive with it? What is your opinion on potential depth?