Coin Orientation!!!!! We need to get to the bottom of it.

[Youngladd]

I didn't see a topic about this so I thought I would start one because we need to get to the bottom of these three questions.

1. When recovering coins how were they most commonly oriented in the soil??

2. If a coin falls and lands in the soil flat or on edge and you wait 100 years, will it still be oriented the same way in the soil?

3. Do coins actually sink over time or does the soil build up over them? or both?

The answers to these questions would help us age and profile certain sites. We will find the answers together!!!!!

 

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[Montana Jim]

I dug a damned near brand new 1877 dime in soil so rocky I'm suprised it dropped the four inches it finally made it. No telling the orientation because I was not using a probe.

I think unless using a probe and really feeling the target it's kinda hard to tell in loose soil.

Good question though... I think I've always figured they just eventually went flat.

 

[MEinWV]

Ok!

My opinion is that by science & nature, a coin wants to lay flat. If it is allowed to, it will lay flat. If it is not laying flat, then something caused it to be that way. Elements such as roots, rocks/pebbles, and even soil densities could have an effect on wether a coin stands on edge or not. Coins that fall into dense grass will likely be on end for a time, even as it makes its way into the ground past the root systems. Once it reaches the soil below the roots it would in all likelyhood end up returning to a flat position, unless one of the elements mentioned above is present. Rocky soil is one fo the variables here.

Most of the old coins I have found in the clean soil below root level have been laying fairly flat. I think that frost and moisture can move coins to some degree.

Soil does build up over a very long period of time. It builds up faster where more organic matter is present, such as in the woods. It can actually decrease in exposed areas prone to steady winds, explaining why sometimes you find old coins close to the surface. In high wind areas, you can often see this where an old house sits. One side of the house may have more foundation exposed, while the other side has less, and you find coins on one side and none on the other.

One variable that comes to mind is when I was detecting an old swimming beach at a lake. I got a reading next to a young tree and looked down to see a coin standing on edge sticking out of the soil. I got down to ground level and saw that it was a barber quarter. I plucked it out and saw that it was in real nice shape. I would say that the coin was there before the tree and was disturbed by its growth.

Thanks Youngladd, Great post on an interesting subject! Looking forward to reading more ideas.

 

[jglunt]

I think the first thing you can do is divide the country into two parts. The areas where the ground freezes in winter and the areas where it does not.

In my opinion, coin movement is much more volatile in those areas of the country where the ground freezes and causes heaving of the soil.

In Michigan I would say that 70-80% of the coins I dig are on edge or near on edge.

I don't know all the dynamics involved (wind, weather, precipitation) as to whether or how coins "sink" or are "covered" but I suspect the former is more prevelant since I dig a lot of new clad that is 2" or more deep.

I'll let others more knowlegeable than I expound more on this topic.

Jim

 

[Born2Dtect]

Some of the coins I dug were left in place in the plug when recovered. I cannot say they were on edge or flat. I appeared to get a fairly even mix. One more note I often hunt fields plowed and no till farmed. When digging in looser soil I tend to find coins flat on the bottom of the hole. Not usually because they were there to begin with. The digging usually moves them.

Ed D.

 

[Youngladd]

Great Responses, keep em commin!!!! I want everybody's input on this one

YLadd

 

[Ant]

I believe coins sink in the flat position because of gravitational influences. Back in the old days people would say things got covered up by dust, what, that’s right, dust.

The new way of thinking is that they sink, I believe this theory. And soil density is what dictates how fast in time and how deep a coin sinks. Also, not all coins will go straight down, but rather sink at an angle.

On a side note:
I always though that a coin that landed on grass was eventually consumed but the grass until it found earth.

 

[absalon]

I have found so far that coins within 2 inches of the surface are typically flat. Beyond that, it seems to be a mix of flat and edged.

I agree with others that have said that due to ground freezing the coins may "re-orient" themselves. Roots, rocks and other obstructions probably are major causes of this as well.

Excellent question!

 

[Rich in Central PA]

I didn't see a topic about this so I thought I would start one because we need to get to the bottom of these three questions.

1. When recovering coins how were they most commonly oriented in the soil??

2. If a coin falls and lands in the soil flat or on edge and you wait 100 years, will it still be oriented the same way in the soil?

3. Do coins actually sink over time or does the soil build up over them? or both?

The answers to these questions would help us age and profile certain sites. We will find the answers together!!!!!

And my answer is:

1. Most of the time flat
2. I would say it has a 50% chance of being flat or on edge(there is really no sure answer unless you wait a hundred years)
3. Both

 

[halfdime]

Most of the coins I find are flat. I often find, even at about 2 inches down, the remains of grass beneath the coin. Most of the time these are Memorial pennies or clad. With older coins, I assume the grass has decomposed.

 

[gold fish]

I have found so far that coins within 2 inches of the surface are typically flat. Beyond that, it seems to be a mix of flat and edged.

I agree with others that have said that due to ground freezing the coins may "re-orient" themselves. Roots, rocks and other obstructions probably are major causes of this as well.

Excellent question!

I agree, all my shallow coins have been flat. Up here in the great white north, I have yet to get a truly "deep"(over 6") coin. I have heard from everyone that the frost heave(specifically the thaw) pushes coins shallower. I have hit a barber dime,1906, on the surface, and I got an 1840 half-dime at about 5", these were within a couple hundred yards of each other. I have noticed that in the woods, coins seem to get a little deeper, I attribute that to the trees and dead leaves.

 

[WV Hillbilly]

I read this thread the other day & I really never paid any attention to how the coins I dug were laying . I dug some today and think most of them were at an angle . Not straight up & down on edge or laying completely flat either .

 

[BudP]

My ground here in Oregon gets almost swampy from rain and a high water table(specially parks and lawns). It seems to me that most of my deep coins are on edge and shallow coins are flat. This is regardless of age. I'm thinking this is due to a....kite-ing effect in the wet ground of late Fall to late Spring. If a coin can orient itself edgeways it 'digs' deeper, faster than the same weight that shows a flat surface to it's downward movement. Comparative sharp edge to flat side works unequally with weight, gravity and natural ground movement.

Bud

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

I think the first thing you can do is divide the country into two parts. The areas where the ground freezes in winter and the areas where it does not.

In my opinion, coin movement is much more volatile in those areas of the country where the ground freezes and causes heaving of the soil.

In Michigan I would say that 70-80% of the coins I dig are on edge or near on edge.

I don't know all the dynamics involved (wind, weather, precipitation) as to whether or how coins "sink" or are "covered" but I suspect the former is more prevelant since I dig a lot of new clad that is 2" or more deep.

I'll let others more knowlegeable than I expound more on this topic.

Jim

I go with the above observation. Also WVHillbilly that most are angled once they get below the 1" or 2" sod layer. Hereabouts we have frost to 18" deep and, in loose wood loam/mast, the hoarfrost action will "till" the top 6" enough to upset coins and keep them shuffled. I've dug 1980's clad to 9" deep in one park I frequent. I've also found silver dimes and quarters at 4" or 5". I think the soil works itself (especally in that park as it floods seasonally when the river rises) and older coins can move up as well as down. In the woods and old cellar holes you get root action that can move coins, or at least tip them.

 

[Youngladd]

These are all great observations, I know gravity,soil density, winter,roots, rocks, and water all effect the orientation and depth. I normally research a site and perform some sampling in order to profile and age the site. I have gone to some sites that should have had old coins and relics but all the deep objects were modern day junk and clad which indicates that soil was either artificially added or the old objects have sunk beyond detection range. There may be a few finds at those sites but I like sites that produce upon sampling.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

There may be a few finds at those sites but I like sites that produce upon sampling.

Don't we all.

I have one site I KNOW will produce old coins. But so far . . . nuttin.

Hunting after a rainy week will produce deeper finds as the soil is more cooperative. I keep hearing all kinds of rave reviews for the 12.5" coils. May have to break down and buy one of them.

 

[bakergeol]

Usually once a year around Springtime here at TN we get questions about frost heaving and coins moving upward. The answer which I looked up many years ago(UXO studies) is that NO coins can't move up because of frost heaving. They are not the right size and shape. Unexploded ordinance can if it is the right size. However, really heavy objects such as chests cannot. Also the idea of coins moving up because of frost heave has sparkled a few humorous posts in the past about harvesting newly moved upward coins in the parks during Springtime.

Most of the really old coins I have found have been flat. However, we have to remember that there is a bias here too, deep coins on edge are more difficult to find.

I imagine if the ground has been disturbed in some fashion by animals, roots or by plowing we can get coins on edge. Also what was plowed 100 years ago may not be apparent today.

So I vote for flat as the normal orientation until disturbed.

George

 

[Youngladd]

Usually once a year around Springtime here at TN we get questions about frost heaving and coins moving upward. The answer which I looked up many years ago(UXO studies) is that NO coins can't move up because of frost heaving. They are not the right size and shape. Unexploded ordinance can if it is the right size. However, really heavy objects such as chests cannot. Also the idea of coins moving up because of frost heave has sparkled a few humorous posts in the past about harvesting newly moved upward coins in the parks during Springtime.

Most of the really old coins I have found have been flat. However, we have to remember that there is a bias here too, deep coins on edge are more difficult to find.

I imagine if the ground has been disturbed in some fashion by animals, roots or by plowing we can get coins on edge. Also what was plowed 100 years ago may not be apparent today.

So I vote for flat as the normal orientation until disturbed.

George

That is a very good point !!! Many people are saying coins are generally flat, but we arent seeing edge coins because we may not be able to detect the majority of them.