Coin identification question

[G.I.B.]

The story:

I'll give as much of the story as I can share-

The coin came from the western caribbean about 25 years ago. The skipper was sailing through an area near shore and stopped for the night. He went snorkeling the next morning to catch a fish in water less than 25' deep.

While hunting he saw this coin, with it's edge sticking sideways up through the sand, and picked up same.

He was unable to continue the hunt and departed the area, years later having the mounting made for his coin.

He was never able to return.

He is now too old to go back and sold his boat several years ago.

He is a good and trusted friend of mine- the story is accurate.

I would like to know about the coin. I'm sure someone here has seen these, and this year, and yes, I'm trying to research the possible wreck this came off of.

So, I'd appreciate any information about this coin that you may have. You should be able to get some pretty good closeups of the coin.

Many thanks.

 

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[old man]

G.I.B., I'm not an expert and probably won't tell you anything that you already don't know. It's a 1795 English Coin.
It could have either been on an Spanish ship or possibly even an American Ship, as my understanding is that America used English Coins in that time period.
I think for someone to try and help you with a name of the ship? Someone might need a better location of the wreck.
ie... an Island that it sank near or a Central America Country. Good Luck on your research.

 

[hobbit]

It is a Spanish Colonial, Carolus IV milled 8 Reales minted in Mexico City in 1795, assayer FM.
It is one of the commonest type of Spanish colonial coinage with mintage in the millions.
These circulated freely all over the world, so identifying a particular nationality of ship would be impossible.

I am no expert, so I won't try to grade it for you.

 

[G.I.B.]

Hi, thanks for the replies.

I'm not looking for grading. It was the minted in Mexico City and assayer FM information I was curious about. I'd also like to look up some history on the meaning of the symbology on the coin as well.

The coin being minted in Mexico City tells me another thing I needed to know.

I know I won't be able to identify the ship from the coin. But I can get clues from it.

Realizing that some minted coins where shipped outbound would be listed in a manifest, verses being shipped as cobs or bars, correct?

...and I'll throw this out.

Remember the old typewriters? You could tell which typewriter wrote something based on inherent small flaws in the lettering consistent with that particular machine. Is that the same with the minting process and where they were struck? Is there a base of knowledge out there that groups coins from particular presses and shipments based on flaws?

If all the coins recovered from a particular wreck had a specific flaw, could not a coin be linked to that wreck, or minting period, based on that flaw?

 

[releventchair]

Perhaps a cracked dies production run was recorded. Mint records if any may reflect noted flaws. A single coin could have been part of a manifest or one out of a sailors purse. A coin can have sources of location beyond a wreck. Unless more to the dive than we need to know here,like rigging artifacts or something. From natives entertaining guests by diving, to superstition of sacrificing some silver. Even inland in the great lakes offering some silver was done to implore good fishing by more than one family. Could it have been done after prayers also, in an attempt to run safe seas? I have seen clad since it is available today used and being called silver, pitched by Johnny Walker Black swillers,(hey don,t look at me!) who saw poor fishing trying to cheat Neptune or whoever.

Beyond the mint they were struck ats normal practice were coins outbound for foreign trade.Then those tested to attempt to avoid counterfeits. Who marked them I,m not up to speed on but any one could to test or sanctify a lot earmarked for a particular destination. China and the Indies then the world saw them reales.

http://www.1messydesk.com/chopmarks/chopmarks.html

 

[Mackaydon]

Your coin is described like this:
Obverse, an armored, laureated bust of Carlos IV is to the right.
CAROLUS IIII DEL GRATIA (DATE)
Reverse, a crowned coat of arms of Spain consisting of a quartered shield with castles and lions in the quarters. In the small center shied, are three fleurs-de-lis. At the bottom of the shield is a pomegranate. Beside the shield are two columns.
PLUS VLTRA is inscribed on the ribbons which are wrapped around the columns.
HISPAN ET IND REX 8R FM
The original weight was 26.75 g; the diameter is 40 mm. This variety was minted between 1791 and 1808 inclusively.
As to understanding the Coat of Arms, you may wish to look at this site:
Coat of arms of Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Don....

 

[G.I.B.]

Mack,

Thanks for the insight and the description. It's what I needed to get a good start.

We don't think that this is a lonely coin due to the location of the find. It was not near any entrance/exit to port, and was close to a rising reef structure from deeper water.

My friend didn't get time to explore the area further, due to approaching weather in the hurricane season.

He had intentions of going back, but health prevented it, and just got worse as the years wore on.

So... I may have a shot at it, after I do a bit of research (if it's still there).

 

[Mackaydon]

G.I.B.
You may wish to look at Google Earth to see if the 'old' location is still intact, and not now under a mall's parking lot or other improvement.
Don.......

 

[G.I.B.]

G.I.B.
You may wish to look at Google Earth to see if the 'old' location is still intact, and not now under a mall's parking lot or other improvement.
Don.......

Naw, too much water off shore. Believe me, I've looked and dreamed...

I guess I need to try to figure out the ships that went down in that area with this timeframe, and see if there is a record of recovery or not. Gotta hit the books...

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Great story G.I.B and nice looking coin for sure. Spanish coins were widely used by all the colonies dispite their nationality. We find them up in Canada, in farmer's fields and on wreck sites, the odd one is found on the beach and the spanish didn't ever settle in this area (too cold I guess). I think they might have been like the American dollar in it's day. Your coin could be from a wreck site, but it could also be from someone who was washed overboard in a storm or fell from the rigging or one of a hundered different ways a sailor would have met his end back then. It's a fantastic keepsake and a great story to cherish from a freind but without anymore evidence to verifiy that a wreck was in the area, I wouldn't spand too much time and money on hunting it down.
ZDD

 

[pattiewhack]

The condition is pretty good so I'd say it didn't circulate much before going down. That being said, there really isn't any way I can think of to prove if if came off a wreck or fell out of somebody's pocket back in the day. Still a great story!

 

[Red_desert]

I have a 1778 2 Reales, think the back and perhaps the front designs are the same. It is worn but especially the back seems identical. Those were once legal monies here in the US.

 

[Mackaydon]

Red desert,
If it's an authentic Mexican 2R, the obverse will show Carlos III and the reverse will be a crowned coat of arms.
Don..........

 

[Red_desert]

Red desert,
If it's an authentic Mexican 2R, the obverse will show Carlos III and the reverse will be a crowned coat of arms.
Don..........

I just went to check some photos of it.

 

[Mackaydon]

Actually, it certainly isn't Mexican since they didn't mint the 2R in 1778.
If the date is, in fact, 1772, that still wouldn't work since the assayer's initials would then be FM.
It's from Potosi, Bolivia
http://goldbergcoins.auctionserver.net/view-auctions/catalog/id/28/lot/62136/
Don........

 

[Red_desert]

Ok, I didn't really know for sure where it was minted, thanks!

 

[Salvor6]

I think the "R" in the assayers mark is a tribute to Alonso de Rincon and Francisco del Rincon who were the first assayers at Potosi , Mexico and Lima.

 

[Mackaydon]

Referring to "red desert's" coin, the P and the R are the initials of the assayers, Pedro Narciso de Mazondo and Raimundo de Iturriaga who worked together from 1776-1795.