Clue Concern First Attempt

[Somero]

Eric,

My favorite clue, is where Julia and Rhiney tried to enter the mountains on their first attempt.

Take care,

Joe

This is what I like about Joe, the way he can make a statement that makes you think

To me it seems they were told a couple different routes into the Mountains and there first attempt and mode of travel was almost like a "Sunday Picnic." Almost as if they were told "this way is shorter", but lacking the knowledge of the trail soon found themselves outmatched by the Mountain. I wonder why the second attempt they did not use the same route, but better prepared?

 

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[roadrunner]

If they could not find it on there first attempt,or every attempt there after.
Then what clues do any of us have to go on.
That would mean every clue that julia,and whom ever said, was no good, because they cant remember the proper clues anyway.
So actually,the only clues we can go buy,are the ones that waltz said.
Now,who has proof of what watlz said.
For clues.

 

[Somero]

If they could not find it on there first attempt,or every attempt there after.
Then what clues do any of us have to go on.
That would mean every clue that julia,and whom ever said, was no good, because they cant remember the proper clues anyway.
So actually,the only clues we can go buy,are the ones that waltz said.
Now,who has proof of what watlz said.
For clues.

This is the main reason I decided to try this with the clues, to see if we could collectively come up with good solid information that may make sense. It may be a long shot, but perhaps we can at least try to condense things a bit without all the other clutter.

As far as Julia and Rhiney, I think there lack of experience in the mountains was their downfall, first attempt may have been the right way for a shortcut but just the wrong mode of travel.

 

[roadrunner]

Ok,I have a thought on this and will send it to you,so it can be your thread, combined with these.
Give me a few. Send it in a PM.

 

[cactusjumper]

Eric,

Here is the clue, taken from "The Bark Notes":

"As I was riding the range, about six miles west of the home ranch, in Augest of 1892 or 1893, I met some campers near an old well belonging to the ranch, and they proved to be a colored woman by the name of Thomas, and a young man about eighteen years old by the name of Rhiney Petrasch, who Mr. and Mrs. Thomas had adopted. Mr. Thomas was German, and all three spoke the German language........"

"Six miles from the home ranch" would put them around Hog Canyon.

"......I rode up the canyon following their buggy tracks, and they had gone up the canyon toward the Superstition Mountains as far as it was possible to go with a horse and buggy, and much farther than I thought possible."

I asked Tom Kollenborn about that well, and he told me there was one out there, as well as a small building. Only Julia and Rhiney made that first trip. There was no third person and for sure not Emil Thomas. They damn sure weren't trying to get to Spirit Mountain.

Take care,

Joe

 

[roadrunner]

CJ, who wrote the Bark notes. Bark himself(what was his first name), or did he get them from someone else.
Did Bark interview Juilia?
What was the Home ranch? The Bark Ranch?

 

[cactusjumper]

CJ, who wrote the Bark notes. Bark himself(what was his first name), or did he get them from someone else. .......NO!
Did Bark interview Juilia?
What was the Home ranch? The Bark Ranch?

Yes to everything else.

Joe

 

[roadrunner]

Thanks.
So my best bet would be to get a copy of the Bark Notes if possible,right?
And which book would be the very best to start with,or have?
I will go to Amazon and look.

 

[cactusjumper]

RR,

Yes, but you won't find it for sale at any book store. I think it's available at ASU, to view. Try Eric.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Somero]

Joe

Seems Julia and Rhiney had the right way to go just the wrong transportation. Hog Canyon would seem like a shorter trip to the Needle area, especially if one did not want to be seen or followed. I wonder if Julia and Rhiney had to ask for directions or acquire some type of map to get to the Needle area for the second attempt, but once there they may have been unsure of there location as to where they should have been relative to Hog Canyon. Would not take much for an inexperienced person to get lost even with a map, who knows maybe the M.I.B could have whisked them away to Spirit Mountain and that's why they never found it.

 

[roadrunner]

Did not Julia and Rhiney take on someone else that did know something about the mountains, or at least directions?
And they suppose to have the directions, or a map,and still couldn't at least start in the right canyon or spot?
So basiclly,the only people that had any chance of finding it, and later giving out directions, had no idea what so ever,where they were going?
Maybe they even had the wrong mountain range.

 

[Somero]

They had the right range, but there first attempt shows that they had know idea what they were getting into. They had no idea what the Superstitions are like, the directions they got were probably accurate but they were "Greenhorns" when it came to those canyons.

 

[roadrunner]

Has anyone mentioned or have an earlier version or map of what Juilia was selling?
I thought this was talked about already.

 

[Somero]

Has anyone mentioned or have an earlier version or map of what Juilia was selling?
I thought this was talked about already.

Not sure I would trust a map made by Julia, I don't think she had the "full grasp" of the clues and terrain she was trying to describe on paper. Not saying it would not have good information on it though, just a bit sketchy (insert rim-shot)

Of course she did make a few dollars selling the maps, so that was something.

 

[roadrunner]

But if she was selling maps.Would they not be copies of the one that waltz gave her?
Or did he even give her a map,but instead just gave her verbal directions.
I thought they had a map of some what.
Maybe we should look for peralta maps instead.
Or did Ruth have a genuine peralta map from a peralta relation.

 

[Somero]

As far as I know Rhiney got most of the verbal directions, so no drawn map, except for maybe the doodle that is somewhat dubious.
I really don't think Jacob ever had a Peralta map either, or that one even existed. I f he did he could have given that to Julia and Rhiney. Of course I could be wrong

 

[markmar]

Not sure I would trust a map made by Julia, I don't think she had the "full grasp" of the clues and terrain she was trying to describe on paper. Not saying it would not have good information on it though, just a bit sketchy (insert rim-shot)

Of course she did make a few dollars selling the maps, so that was something.

You are correct . A map maded by julia would not have value . The " Julia Thomas map " had made by Waltz before he died .

I really don't think Jacob ever had a Peralta map either, or that one even existed. I f he did he could have given that to Julia and Rhiney. Of course I could be wrong

Waltz had a version of Perfil map , and with the clues which gave him a Peralta's relative , he was able to recognized the map . Was enough two clues to recognize the map , and these was :

1 - “ The first gorge on the south side, from the west end of the range, a monumented trail which led them northward over a lofty ridge ; thence
downward past Sombrero Butte into a long canyon running north, and finally to a
tributary canyon very deep and rocky, and densely wooded with a continuous thicket of
scrub oak ”

2- " If you pass three Red Hills you have gone too far "

These two clues leads you in the correct region .
Waltz before died made a sketch which seems like the Perfil map . Look for similarities with the Perfil map

 

[Somero]

You are correct . A map maded by julia would not have value . The " Julia Thomas map " had made by Waltz before he died .

If Waltz had intended to show them where the mine was, I wonder why he did not give them a really good map instead of a bunch of "clues" Then again maybe he did give them a map but they were unable to interpret it. Read one of Tom Kollenberg's chronicles about how so many names of landmarks have changed over the years in the Superstitions. This was probably the issue with the "clues" and any maps Julia and Rhiney were following seeing as how we still have the same problem today.

 

[markmar]

If Waltz had intended to show them where the mine was, I wonder why he did not give them a really good map instead of a bunch of "clues" Then again maybe he did give them a map but they were unable to interpret it. Read one of Tom Kollenberg's chronicles about how so many names of landmarks have changed over the years in the Superstitions. This was probably the issue with the "clues" and any maps Julia and Rhiney were following seeing as how we still have the same problem today.

The truth is how " they were unable to interpret it " . When Waltz died , the names of the landmarks had no changed yet .

PS

I have edited the previous post .

 

[393stroker]

I wish someone would post a GE shot of this first attempt, so I knew where to look. Unless it`s TOP SECRET.