Clovis-need help!

[Jbenson]

This was part of the “Charles Elgin” collection. Not sure who he is ( any ideas)?
Anyways a buddy of mine wants to buy it. Before he does, do you see any issues with it. Supposedly from Ohio or Ky. One thing to point out, there are no copper reminants on the base which is often a clue to a forgery. Also, the edges are dull which does not appear to be freshly knapped. There are several thick deposits (crusty layer) which from what I am told could be faked but are often stains, not thick encrustations and they are hard to remove. Appears to be oxide deposits. These are on several areas of the point. Also looks to have patina?Anyways, do you see any issues and who do you recommend to have

 

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[Jbenson]

Few more pics....

 

[joshuaream]

Merry Christmas.

Since you asked. I’d walk away from that point. Something about the flaking makes me think the knapper has looked at a lot of pictures but probably hasn’t handled many authentic Clovis points. There are some bulbous flakes, deltas and flake terminations that just aren’t things ancient Clovis makers struggled with. Could it be authentic? Sure, I’ve been wrong many times.

 

[dognose]

Show some of the "several thick deposits" clearly please.

what power of loupe are you using? Are you using a microscope?

I agree with joshuaream, walk away. From those images you posted I just dont see it. However like he, I will say again its virtually impossible to determine if a relic is authentic or not from a photograph. Those that can are pulling your leg.

How much is the asking price and is he giving you any return policy?

Authentication opinions are just that. Opinions. Some better than others, some worthless.

 

[smokeythecat]

As far as it goes, I can't really tell the difference with the exception the newer ones seem to look "cleaner". I think yours is old.

 

[unclemac]

price can be a dead give away too...how much are they asking for it?

 

[Relicgrubber]

The lack of overshot flaking is a good indicator it could be modern imo.

 

[monsterrack]

The flute is what I see as a factor of it being off. That looks more like thinning flakes than a flute. In a flute you will see ripples from where the shock wave ran through the stone and from your photo I don't see that. Before I spent money I would get someone to give me a hands opinion ,photos just can't be good enough to say fake or real.

 

[Jbenson]

Thanks all. Curious, these deposits/stains are on the surface. Can’t tell if it’s iron deposits or somehow faked. Any ideas on what these are?

I also see there is a stack-perhaps hindering further thinning?
Perhaps it’s a hi lo or related late paleo? Of course it could also be modern.

Any ideas?

 

[Quartzite Keith]

"I also see there is a stack-perhaps hindering further thinning?"

As a knapper, that's the first thing I noticed. There is an inclusion in the middle of the stone inhibiting flaking. I call them "knots" because they behave like a knot in a piece of wood. You are working merrily along, then hit an area where all of a sudden the material won't cooperate. On the side with the narrower flute you can see it most clearly, flakes come in from three directions, but then hit the "knot" and ride up it instead of cutting through it.

Personally, I like it, but as others have pointed out, that's easy for someone with no stake in the matter and not having it in hand to say. I am really not qualified to even give an opinion, but just for fun: I think it is one made away from the quarry. At the quarry they tended to be very aggressive in their knapping and fairly strict on the "specs" of the point. Away from the quarry, they tended to be more conservative and loosened their standards some. That inclusion may very well of caused it to be tossed at the quarry, but 20 miles away, it can be made to work. This also explains the late of "overshot" type flakes. More than anything else, "overshot" just represents fast, aggressive knapping. On the face with the wider flute that terminates in an angled hinge, it almost looks to me that that may have been fluted twice. Perhaps too much imagination on my part, but it kind of looks like a narrow flute was run on that face, then the other face fluted, then the knapper came back to that face and ran another flute beside and expanding over the first. You get that kind of thing with some regularity on originals, but very few modern knappers multiple flute.

 

[monsterrack]

The photo of the deposit looks right from what I can see, but if you want the opinion of the best in the field JMO send it to Jim Bennett. He has a good name and reputation. Good luck!!!!!!!

 

[dognose]

The closeups of the deposits are interesting, reposted below.


I have had an ongoing experiment now for 5 years. I was given a recently knapped clovis point, made of white coral. It was knapped by a friend of mine who lives in Florida. I placed this point in a flower pot, covered it with iron filings, some old iron items found over the years in fields, along with some coffee, and some other ingredients. I covered this with approx 5 inches of dirt from the pot side and top.
This pot sit in the elements all day, everyday 365 days a year, by my barn where it gets rain, snow and sunshine.
In 2016 I exhumed this point, and it did have some interesting material on it. I was able to use a tooth brush on it and most of the material did not come off.

I have done this as a learning aid for myself as I, like anyone who has purchased any relic, has gotten burned.

The material in the above image looks somewhat like that in my 'test' point.

I have found 1 complete clovis, and 3 broken over the years. 3 small agate basin points. The clovis I found does not show the same flaking style that I see in the images.

On those that I have found, the basal grinding stops about where the yellow arrow is shown below. What it looks like to me, some edge grinding has occurred to help give the point the shape one likes to see in clovis points. This edge grinding shown in the red arrows below, and then also on the image with the yellow arrow to give better perspective.

While the agate basin has basal grinding without flutes, I don't see the edge griding like that above the basal grinding area. That makes me suspect on this point.





I am not saying one way or the other here that point is authentic or not. just giving some info. If time allows I will dig up the point in the next few days.

I agree with others, get a hands on second opinion by a qualified person.

 

[joshuaream]

Keith,

Good observations, I think a knapper's eye is a great way to understand the how authentically pieces are made. I've learned a lot from knapper friends over the years.

One of my sites is a quarry used by fluted point makers, so I guess I see a lot more of the "damn the torpedoes" style of aggressive knapping where risk of snapping a piece simply wasn't as big of a deal as if they were in an area where they didn't know or have access to raw materials.

Joshua

"I also see there is a stack-perhaps hindering further thinning?"

As a knapper, that's the first thing I noticed. There is an inclusion in the middle of the stone inhibiting flaking. I call them "knots" because they behave like a knot in a piece of wood. You are working merrily along, then hit an area where all of a sudden the material won't cooperate. On the side with the narrower flute you can see it most clearly, flakes come in from three directions, but then hit the "knot" and ride up it instead of cutting through it.

Personally, I like it, but as others have pointed out, that's easy for someone with no stake in the matter and not having it in hand to say. I am really not qualified to even give an opinion, but just for fun: I think it is one made away from the quarry. At the quarry they tended to be very aggressive in their knapping and fairly strict on the "specs" of the point. Away from the quarry, they tended to be more conservative and loosened their standards some. That inclusion may very well of caused it to be tossed at the quarry, but 20 miles away, it can be made to work. This also explains the late of "overshot" type flakes. More than anything else, "overshot" just represents fast, aggressive knapping. On the face with the wider flute that terminates in an angled hinge, it almost looks to me that that may have been fluted twice. Perhaps too much imagination on my part, but it kind of looks like a narrow flute was run on that face, then the other face fluted, then the knapper came back to that face and ran another flute beside and expanding over the first. You get that kind of thing with some regularity on originals, but very few modern knappers multiple flute.