Cleaning up the ocean or grave robbing?

[Darren in NC]

I've been watching this for a few years, but haven't seen it discussed here.

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/s...for-rare-steel-used-to-make-sensitive-medical

https://www.theguardian.com/world/n...ave-robbery-asias-disappearing-ww2-shipwrecks

I applaud the cleaning up of oceans in any form. I am not one to believe shipwrecks are graves. I believe that was a tactic used by gov'ts and archies to prevent someone else from salvaging abandoned cargo. We don't leave cars and bodies in their place if people die in an accident, so why do we call a wrecked ship a "grave?" I do believe in being sensitive to human remains, so I don't condone the way these salvagers went about their business.

 

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[Alexandre]

Why don't you go and salvage USS Arizona in Hawaii? Someone should be cleaning that oil spill...

 

[Coinucopia]

I've been watching this for a few years, but haven't seen it discussed here.

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/s...for-rare-steel-used-to-make-sensitive-medical

https://www.theguardian.com/world/n...ave-robbery-asias-disappearing-ww2-shipwrecks

I applaud the cleaning up of oceans in any form. I am not one to believe shipwrecks are graves. I believe that was a tactic used by gov'ts and archies to prevent someone else from salvaging abandoned cargo. We don't leave cars and bodies in their place if people die in an accident, so why do we call a wrecked ship a "grave?" I do believe in being sensitive to human remains, so I don't condone the way these salvagers went about their business.

Not all shipwrecks could be considered graves but many are and should be treated as such with all due reverence to the departed. Those wrecks that contain human remains within are the final resting place of many souls lost at sea. I've personally visited the USS Arizona Memorial and it's a very somber experience. The wreckage of that mighty ship now sitting below the waves is the very definition of a grave IMO and those should be respected. I would have no problem with salvage of wrecks that don't meet that criteria and is just recoverable resources.

 

[DeepseekerADS]

Why don't you go and salvage USS Arizona in Hawaii? Someone should be cleaning that oil spill...

The battleship exploded violently and sank, with the loss of 1,177 officers and crewmen.

The site is better as a memorial, I saw that oil hitting the surface of the water while visiting = very haunting.

 

[Red_desert]

The Archies didn't think that idea up... over 30 years ago, I'd been told of how it was said, "An archaeologist is nothing but a glorified grave robber". Archaeology as a study, hasn't been around all that long of a time, it is pre-dated by many of the shipwrecks.

 

[Alexandre]

So, we agree, we can say that some wrecked ships are, indeed, graves.

The battleship exploded violently and sank, with the loss of 1,177 officers and crewmen.

The site is better as a memorial, I saw that oil hitting the surface of the water while visiting = very haunting.

 

[Alexandre]

Actually, I am friends with some archies that care for, and maintain, the USS Arizona memorial.

The Archies didn't think that idea up... over 30 years ago, I'd been told of how it was said, "An archaeologist is nothing but a glorified grave robber". Archaeology as a study, hasn't been around all that long of a time, it is pre-dated by many of the shipwrecks.

 

[Red_desert]

Actually, I am friends with some archies that care for, and maintain, the USS Arizona memorial.

Friends, I myself have some Interest in Hawaii, recently was accepted into the HWS (Hawaii Watercolor Society). Friendly people, they have quite a few museums over there, the coral reefs are bleaching out a huge concern. Time to see the reefs before it is too late.

Watercolor Society). Friendly people, they have quite a few museums over there, the coral reefs are bleaching out a huge concern. Time to see the reefs before it is too late. I know at least one of the HWS artist member is known as an archaeological artist, sounds very interesting will have to check it out.​

 

[jeff of pa]

imo if there is No Monument on Site, & No official Record
with Location, that can be Viewed, it is Not an Official Grave,
Till it is Found, Researched & Labeled.

 

[smokeythecat]

Out in the middle of the Pacific, unmarked, in international waters (?), at this point it's a wreck. That many years in warm waters destroys most remains. There are exceptions, the CSS Hunley for one.

 

[xaos]

I tend to look at this from the perspective of the crew on the vessel.

Historically, it was of the highest honor to die in battle and be buried at sea.

I ask myself, why am I, and who am I to disturb their grave? In my simple mind, I can quantify the obvious cargo versus personal items. All good there. A personal item belongs to the heirs, I do not qualify that, and if it means leaving it, I do.

It is a quandary, and by virtue, a shipwreck is an accident and likely took the crew with it. Obviously, there are wrecks where the crew survived, but that is not the issue at hand.

Out in the middle of the Pacific, unmarked, in international waters (?), at this point it's a wreck. That many years in warm waters destroys most remains. There are exceptions, the CSS Hunley for one.

Sorry, I cannot agree with that analogy. In reality, that sort of statement is ignorant of known principles of treasure recovery with basic archaeological principles. Not to mention, the laws that we must work under.
When was the last time you heard of a recovery that simply ignored that it could be a potential maritime gravesite?
There are plenty of bodies buried in pine boxes where nothing remains, yet it is still a marked gravesite, just as a shipwreck remains are a marked gravesite. Would you dig in an old cemetery for artefacts, as there are no remains after a hundred years?

In your mind, why is the Hunley an exception? (it was not sunk by enemy fire in combat, originally, it was thought that the crew scuttled itself, it was not until it was recovered that it was determined that its own torpedo blew up, sinking itself, more of an embarrassment than a combat causality)
Still, a maritime gravesite, like virtually ALL shipwrecks.

Therein lies the issue and the rub.

Its complicated, and in my opinion, it is only going to get more complicated... we need to realise and recognise the issues in a comprehensive way..

In this business, to categorically deny maritime gravesites is NOT smart.

 

[Darren in NC]

Why don't you go and salvage USS Arizona in Hawaii? Someone should be cleaning that oil spill...

You're speaking to one who has no desire for a grave. I only desire to be cremated, and my ashes sprinkled in the ocean to be free. I have no desire to be confined to a hole in the ground, a coffin, or ship. So it wouldn't bother me at all to clean up the USS Arizona, and set those men free. But perception is reality whether we like it or not, so the perceived disrespect would be quite a hurdle to overcome. But tossing aside remains as you plunder is not part of my code. Humans are created in the image of God, and thus are to be respected...even after death.

 

[ARC]

If someone is hit by a car do you make the spot in the street where it happened a grave ?

Respect the person... The story and memory is the "taboo" ... the wreckage the "totem".

Almost every wreck of any consequence is a place of at least someone's last breath... SO... you could claim "grave" to almost every sinking that ever happened.

When it comes to venturing out on or in water this is the nature of the beast.

All of us will have that "place" where life as we know it ends...one way or another... but IMO... being "left" is not a "proper burial"... not one chosen by all on board anyway.

Also IMO... a wreck of any kind... be it a car... a plane... a ship... should be recovered... this IS and always has been called "standard protocol".

No one is left behind.

To generalize all on board's wishes is just a farce.

Beings I have helped with search of persons... I do not feel that "leaving" someone behind is or should be an option if able to do otherwise.

If every place we could not find or recover everyone was made a grave... you could call an entire place like Vietnam a grave.

IF you know where they are... and they were "lost"... and not buried there on purpose... go get them and give them a proper burial.

PS...

Archeologists...

They are THE disturbers of graves and resting places of everyone and anything ... from the tombs of the Pharaohs to the dinosaurs.

Because they are slower and careful whilst disturbing a grave... assign numbers and catalog it... it makes it ok to desecrate it.

SO... in essence even they too "recover" the lost when even not a grave and its curiosity that drives them to do it.

Just keep in mind...

RESPECT IS RESPECT no matter "where".

 

[Dug]

You're speaking to one who has no desire for a grave. I only desire to be cremated, and my ashes sprinkled in the ocean to be free. I have no desire to be confined to a hole in the ground, a coffin, or ship. So it wouldn't bother me at all to clean up the USS Arizona, and set those men free. But perception is reality whether we like it or not, so the perceived disrespect would be quite a hurdle to overcome. But tossing aside remains as you plunder is not part of my code. Humans are created in the image of God, and thus are to be respected...even after death.

 

[Alexandre]

Unless you bury them on that exact spot, I guess the answer is "no".

But when a ship goes down, almost always it takes people with them. Look at this Spanish soldier sunk with the San Salvador, off Punta del Leste, Uruguay, in 1812. There are scores of bodies in this site, all in 5 meters of water.

If someone is hit by a car do you make the spot in the street where it happened a grave ?

 

[Alexandre]

Ha ha ha! You made my day!

View attachment 1714895

 

[Boatlode]

If it's a warship containing dead sailors, it should be treated with as much respect as a military cemetery. Period, dot, end of story.

BTW, they are still burying the cremated remains of Arizona veterans in turret #2, for those who choose to be with their shipmates.

 

[VOC]

We humans are funny

We get all emotional over the remains of the dead, whilst happily chewing on the bones of other dead animals.

 

[ARC]

Some may find this an interesting read...

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-15031084

 

[Alexandre]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/28/bones-mass-grave-british-war-wrecks-java-indonesia

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/wwii-wrecks-scrap-metal.html