Claim Jumpers are everywhere Overfiling claims

[dredgeman]

A good guy has had two claims in Mojave forever. He works them every year.

Someone filed over his claims and immediately sold the claims to a Club. The club went out and worked their new claim and got really good gold.

Now the good guy has to give up or go to court with the club, that thinks they are on the up and up

Every claim owner should be aware that BLM does not screen overfiling of claims and it can happen to almost any claim.

Someone is actively overfiling and selling existing claims.

 

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[jog]

Have him make a phone call to the club and explain the situation, I have had this done to me and if they know he will be taking legal action against them they may back down. It worked for me, but if there are any problems with his paper work or his boundry markers they may be able to challenge his right to the claim. The courts will almost always rule in favor of the person who located first and that doesn't sound like it's a problem.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Pretty simple and well established solution.

1. Sue in county court, follow their rules for service, fees are only about $35 in most counties. You can usually get a court date within two weeks if you notify the court it involves adverse possession of real property. Those cases get bumped to the front of the line.

2. Show up in court with a certified copy of your original location notice from the County Recorder. Also bring a certified copy of your current County Recording of your Notice of Intent to Hold Mining Claim or your Affidavit of Annual Labor - whichever you were required to record for the current year. (BLM filings make no difference in a court of law so make sure you have the certified County recordings.)

3. Show the judge your certified copies. They prove you are the senior claimant. Judge then looks at whatever the adverse claimant brings for the earlier date of recording.

4. Take a copy of your winning court judgement to the BLM State office and they will remove the adverse claim from their active case file. Notify the County Sheriff of your judgement and carry a copy with you while near your claim.

Bob's yer Uncle.

Works every time for the last 141 years.

Notifying the overclaimer will not solve your problem. The BLM is only going to remove that overclaim from the active case files if you file a winning court judgement with them.

 

[Floating_Adrift]

What is overfiling an existing claim?

This may be relevant to something I saw recently. I joined the local gold prospectors club about 2 weeks ago and went to one of their claims to do a little prospecting. Using my GPS and the google earth overlay I created from the claim boundary, I saw several other claim markers that looked to be overlapping their claim. Being very new to this, I didn't know what was going on, thinking that perhaps these may be markers from previous claims? I did take photos of the markers and GPS coordinates to show at the next club meeting. The club has had their claims for quite a long time from what I understand.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Overfiling is common. It's when one or more persons claim the same piece of land. This is often by mistake by newbies who think if they see no markers they can go ahead and make a claim (not true). Sometimes (too often) it's part of a scam to make money off those ignorant of the law. In some areas the same person will make several claims in the exact same spot so they can sell the claim many times to the endless supply of suckers looking to buy a claim.

Of course only the first person to make a claim has a lawful right to prospect or mine it but the only enforcement of that right is by the original claimant themselves.

The BLM does not care how many people claim an area. They simply collect their fees and file your claim papers. It's not their job to tell you whether there is already an existing claim there. It's not uncommon to see as many as five claims in the same location.

There is no government authority to deny some one a claim simply because there are other claims already there. Mining claims are a public claim of right made by individuals. It's up to those individuals to enforce their exclusive right to the minerals on their claim.

Today with so many people making claims so they can say they have one, or to use for recreation, or they want to "flip" the claim to make some money (all illegal) they don't really understand how important it is to hold their claim against those who would treat it as their own.

Given the fact that most people are so misinformed about court (thanks to television) that they think they need a lawyer or a million dollars and months of time to settle a simple matter like an overclaim they just let things ride or come on forums like this and vent. That pretty much sinks any chance of them maintaining a legal right to exclude other prospectors from their claim.

There is a legal obligation to possess and occupy your claim. Failure to oust overclaimers can lead to public proof of abandonment of your claim.

 

[Floating_Adrift]

Good grief, sounds like a mess. Seems like it would be easy enough in this day and age for the BLM to track claims with a GIS overlay on Google Earth to see where things overlap.

Thank you for the info, I'll follow up with the club to see what is going on and what needs to be done.

 

[Clay Diggins]

There used to be a system to display claimed areas on a map at the BLM website. That was removed from public view in February 2011. One of the valid reasons for taking that away from the public was the BLM has no right or duty to map claims. They don't locate claims on their own files any closer than the nearest quarter mile. Maps based entirely on that information are always incorrect.

As long as people believed the BLM had any authority about which claim was valid or where they were located there was trouble. Even now you believe that if the BLM went back to their old GIS system it would make a difference. It would not. People would foolishly rely on it as they did before.

I will state it once again: The legal authority to locate and defend a claim rests entirely on the claimant. The BLM can not attest to a claims validity in a court of law. It's been that way since long before there even was a BLM. Relying on BLM case files for claim validity is a fools errand.

 

[preshrunkmilk]

I think the last thing anyone would want is the goverment employees verifying anything. I could see this happen. The employee would have to go out atleast once and verify that corner markers are in proper location. This job goes to people fresh out of school most likely a forestry degree or enviromental science. While out there verifying the locations they notice some wierd moss or dang toad that is on the endargered species list for the state or just shouldn't be growing there something like that. Next thing you know hey you can't go on your claim or in a 20 mile radius of that area now.

It be best just to let claim owners handel there claims imo. I always think about that damn spotted owl and all the loggers who went out of work. Even thou that is the same species found from WA to mexico because it was rare in one spot no more logging. There is enough govt red tape over minning just my opinion might take a few months but if that is the good man's claim he will get it back.

 

[jog]

Pretty simple and well established solution.

1. Sue in county court, follow their rules for service, fees are only about $35 in most counties. You can usually get a court date within two weeks if you notify the court it involves adverse possession of real property. Those cases get bumped to the front of the line.

2. Show up in court with a certified copy of your original location notice from the County Recorder. Also bring a certified copy of your current County Recording of your Notice of Intent to Hold Mining Claim or your Affidavit of Annual Labor - whichever you were required to record for the current year. (BLM filings make no difference in a court of law so make sure you have the certified County recordings.)

3. Show the judge your certified copies. They prove you are the senior claimant. Judge then looks at whatever the adverse claimant brings for the earlier date of recording.

4. Take a copy of your winning court judgement to the BLM State office and they will remove the adverse claim from their active case file. Notify the County Sheriff of your judgement and carry a copy with you while near your claim.

Bob's yer Uncle.

Works every time for the last 141 years.

Notifying the overclaimer will not solve your problem. The BLM is only going to remove that overclaim from the active case files if you file a winning court judgement with them.

I aggree with what you have said, but if the overclaimer is not aware of what has happened because there ignorant and paid for it without understanding how the system works or doing any research then a phone call would be where I would start.
I found one of my claims posted for sale on eBay, the price that it was being sold for was a lot less than what this person claimed it was really worth. It took one call informing the seller that if the claim sold I would be coming after him for what he claimed it was really worth, that was the end of that. It didn't cost me a dime....

 

[UncleMatt]

The BLM does not care how many people claim an area. They simply collect their fees and file your claim papers. It's not their job to tell you whether there is already an existing claim there.

I appreciate your informed posts, but in my honest opinion, it should be their job. If a government agency is giving out licenses to mine an area, they should have a system set up to notify them if someone tries to file on ground that is already claimed. Too many people are languishing in past eras of technology instead of stepping into the present and embracing technology that could accomplish this task easily and quickly. We need to amend the laws to include language that uses GPS coordinates instead of using location markers from over 100 years ago. They should also sell official markers to the public to mark claim corners, and each of these could have its own GPS tag to tell the agency where is has been placed. If it is wrong, the person placing it should be notified by the agency so it can be corrected. The longer people cling to the past on this, the more it will get screwed up.

If I can come up with this after only a few minutes of thinking about it, why can't anyone else?

 

[UncleMatt]

I think the last thing anyone would want is the goverment employees verifying anything. I could see this happen. The employee would have to go out atleast once and verify that corner markers are in proper location. This job goes to people fresh out of school most likely a forestry degree or enviromental science. While out there verifying the locations they notice some wierd moss or dang toad that is on the endargered species list for the state or just shouldn't be growing there something like that. Next thing you know hey you can't go on your claim or in a 20 mile radius of that area now.

It be best just to let claim owners handel there claims imo. I always think about that damn spotted owl and all the loggers who went out of work. Even thou that is the same species found from WA to mexico because it was rare in one spot no more logging. There is enough govt red tape over minning just my opinion might take a few months but if that is the good man's claim he will get it back.

I would be fine with government employees verifying accuracy. And if new technologies were used it would be very simple thing to do, and very cost effective.

 

[preshrunkmilk]

It would be cost effictive to do it to all new claims made. To go back and verfy with gps all old claims would cost billions. Markers suck as witness trees or how a creek ran a hundred years ago are gone now. It would be a lot more work then go out and read a location. Reasearch threw old archived books that are not on a computer would have to be used. I am doing an internship for state dnr in indiana right now as part of my degree I started at Nau in arizona and verify land that has changed hands over the last hundred years is very time consuming and tedious. I wish it was as simple as walking out looking at the gps and taking a few pictures.

Also like I said before employees are required to report things that endanger water ways or animal species ect. Unlike 90% of govt employees that buy Into the entire green movement and the sustainability idealism I whole heartly belive the econmic downfall of this country can be traced back to the green movment and not using our natrual resources.

 

[Hoser John]

In this age of paper hangers this happens all the time. Just inform by certified mail to cease and desist---then you get into small claims court really cheap and fast as superior cout/cival takes ages in kalif,and small claims can't be appealed. Get it on,get it over asap. I held a claim on the BLM office in Sacramento for years back in the 70s to prove to folks they'll file anything and check nuttn'. At LEAST 90% of claims not filed correctly,paper hung or overfiling as shammers skammers abound easily in this computer fed insane new world order-John-

 

[UncleMatt]

It would be cost effictive to do it to all new claims made. To go back and verfy with gps all old claims would cost billions. Markers suck as witness trees or how a creek ran a hundred years ago are gone now. It would be a lot more work then go out and read a location. Reasearch threw old archived books that are not on a computer would have to be used. I am doing an internship for state dnr in indiana right now as part of my degree I started at Nau in arizona and verify land that has changed hands over the last hundred years is very time consuming and tedious. I wish it was as simple as walking out looking at the gps and taking a few pictures.

Also like I said before employees are required to report things that endanger water ways or animal species ect. Unlike 90% of govt employees that buy Into the entire green movement and the sustainability idealism I whole heartly belive the econmic downfall of this country can be traced back to the green movment and not using our natrual resources.

I totally disagree with your position on renewable energy. And I also disagree it would take billions to apply new technology to existing mining claims. You manufacture the GPS tag markers, make them available to the public, set a reasonable deadline a couple of years out, and then require the mine claim holders to buy and place the markers at their claim corners. Then the agency could scan the GPS tags and see if they are located properly, and if anyone else has or is attempting to file on top of those claims. GPS tags are cheap too, not expensive at all! This would maybe cost a couple of million to implement, not billions.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I appreciate your informed posts, but in my honest opinion, it should be their job. If a government agency is giving out licenses to mine an area, they should have a system set up to notify them if someone tries to file on ground that is already claimed.

This is where your theories go out the door Matt. The BLM does not give out licenses to mine mineral claims. It's very well established law for more than 140 years with Federal Statutes, 100's of Supreme Court decisions and 1,000s of District court decisions that the government has granted the right of the people to locate valuable mineral deposits for their exclusive use. That same body of law insists that the locator alone define and make public his location and that it is his duty alone to defend his location from all who would infringe his rights.

What you are proposing would overturn more than a century of established law and land decisions. The very status of the land you live on would more than likely be subject to attack once those mineral grants become subject to review. The only group I know of who have ever seriously suggested screwing up the legal system that made this country rich are the "greenies" that have sprung up in California over the last 35 years.

I suggest you study the simple legal system behind mineral claims. Once you understand the rights and duties of the claimants I'm sure you will understand why the BLM has been specifically restricted by Congress from doing what you propose.

On the other hand the BLM does issue licenses for non-locatable non-claimable common minerals. There is a very detailed system involved there that ensures that no two parcels of land will ever be licensed to more than one entity. That system has been in effect for 101 years, long before GPS was even dreamed of.

 

[jog]

I for one would not want the BLM taking responsibility for my claims considering they can't even enter the information from my location notice to the LR2000 correctly. They have caused me problems with this more than once. If you want an example just look at whats going on in Washington DC.

 

[preshrunkmilk]

I totally disagree with your position on renewable energy. And I also disagree it would take billions to apply new technology to existing mining claims. You manufacture the GPS tag markers, make them available to the public, set a reasonable deadline a couple of years out, and then require the mine claim holders to buy and place the markers at their claim corners. Then the agency could scan the GPS tags and see if they are located properly, and if anyone else has or is attempting to file on top of those claims. GPS tags are cheap too, not expensive at all! This would maybe cost a couple of million to implement, not billions.

How would one know what the gps locations of the claim are correct without going out there and verify. Doing reasearch through all of the claims on the location going back before they used markers when they used things like tree buildings naturally formations that change over time ect. Also if they where to estblish such a system taking on responisabilty saying this is correct they most likely would aslo want to establish the said owner is also the owner I would think. Now with the employees they have they couldn't do this they would have to hire more. The govt shut down cost 24 billion for 16 days wasn't it? I'm not sure how much of that was national parks dept workers ect. Millions to verify land across this country for minerals rights claims ect.? Plus the cost would be multiplied by the years it would take to do it. Maybe I'm wrong but having been in this exact field for a year now doing this such thing over farm land my experience would leave me belive it would cost billions

 

[jog]

What it comes down to is a good map displaying Township, Range & Section and the county recorder. Simple and cost effective.

 

[panner59]

all claim jumpers should be giving a long dirt nap!

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

The answer to all of it - is the 1872 mining law. You have the responsibility to know where you are, and what is open for claim, and what isn't. If you file over someone else's claim, the BLM will not give you your money back, and you can be sued for anything you took off the claim, and frankly, you can be sued anyway, and win. (been there, done that - it happens all the time) Awhile back, someone "claimed" up dozens of claims in Quartzsite, and immediately started posting it, saying you couldn't pan - or md. Well, there is a main area in Quartzsite that is public land and NOT open to claim - within a couple of weeks, several people complained about the "harassment" by the supposed claim owners, and the government came and took every sign down, and the people who filed all those claims lost every dime. You have to know the whole deal - if its public, if its open to claim, if there are any restrictions, which government entity has the land, and if there are any other claims. Bottom line, the law says, (1) you MUST be on claimable land, (open to claim) (2) no other claims on it (3) you have a discovery that will pass the "prudent man test". Many claims that the GPAA has had, had their claims invalidated because there IS no discovery that meets that test. Just because 100 people work a claim, doesn't mean its a valid claim. (and other clubs, too, by the way). And, for me, personally, I want the mining law just like it is, because, in reality, it is THE ONLY law that guarantees your right to enter public land.

The 1872 Mining Law does not protect recreational mining (you can prospect if the land is open and not already claimed). Recreational mining does not meet the prudent man test, and is not protected by the law.

Mrs.O