Challenge for Superstition Gold

[coazon de oro]

homar...you seem to think i care about your theories..i've told you before..nothing goes over my head...the facts are that i dont really care what you have to say ..as far as i'm concerned you have never done anything or contributed any info that matters to me....ryan does what he says he is going to do and thats why i have respect for him..i'm not ignoring you homar...its just that nothing you have to say interests me...

Well thanks for being honest, I feel the same way about you.

Homar

 

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[KXMember]

Nice Video.

I wonder what happened to the real Trail Maps?

So we now see the Witch Map and the heart stone are the original maps and those old trail stones were forgeries with either to many symbols added, or certain symbols left out of the equation. He may just find those originals before its over.

I wouldn't have gone to that much trouble looking for the provenance. Like Homar, I take them at face value and used them as far as I could then I had to move onward on my own with other sources for the next phases as the maps set are not complete. Either the Indian Head map is missing or the other map was never found and probably pushed under the berm next to the Burrow Pit down to deep for discovery.

Since I believe the maps as a set are not complete all of this means nothing to me but good old fashion entertainment!

Keep it up you guys and you may just find your way to that $200 a show gig in TV land! Right after "Finding Bigfoot" and good old Matt Moneymaker!

The Frank & Ryan show!

Just like Abbott & Costello!

All that is needed is on those maps, regardless if they were copied. The Gmap is the same as the Pmap.

 

[Old]

Homar, if you are a firm believer in the stones I would think you might be a tad bit concerned about where the two original trail maps went, what they looked like and depicted. No?

 

[KXMember]

Homar, if you are a firm believer in the stones I would think you might be a tad bit concerned about where the two original trail maps went, what they looked like and depicted. No?

Doesn't matter...ring around the Rosie's

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar, if you are a firm believer in the stones I would think you might be a tad bit concerned about where the two original trail maps went, what they looked like and depicted. No?

Howdy Lynda,

In my honest opinion they went to the museum as stated by those who keep them. There is no solid proof otherwise. Once an assumption is started the truth is soon forgotten. The flaws and chips on the stones cannot be duplicated. I find nothing missing on the trail maps.

Homar

 

[Oroblanco]

roy..i disagree...the oldest info that is out there hasnt gotten anyone anywhere

Hasn't it? Do you discount the Pit mine? Conversely, a great deal of false information has been published on the LDM in recent years, and also a goodly portion of possibly true but not related information as well. People have been adding on BS to the bare facts almost since day one, heck Waltz himself may have started it, linking the Peralta story with his own.

Sdcfia wrote

From logical and human behavior points of view, it seems to me that "original source data" would be by far the least likely to trust. After all, anyone who has treasure "facts" - if any truly exist - will guard them closely and obfuscate all proprietary material from the beginning. Who wouldn't?

Well I respectfully disagree with your line of reasoning there - people have been broadcasting lost treasure information since the earliest days of writing. Treasure secrets are the hardest kind to keep, and after the original seekers fail (at which point we usually have the first published/public information made available) it is very common for the clues/information to get published and spread around, apparently with the hope that SOMEONE will get lucky and figure out the clues and find the treasure or mine. You personally might well have the intestinal fortitude to keep treasure "Facts" closely guarded secrets, but our history is replete with examples that are the opposite. Look at Julia Thomas for an example, very shortly after her own failure to find Waltz's mine and cache, (and after enlisting help) she did not hesitate to tell her story to a newspaper man - Pierpont C. Bicknell. The Peralta stones were in Life Magazine by 1964,including photos of the stones!

 

[azdave35]

Hasn't it? Do you discount the Pit mine? Conversely, a great deal of false information has been published on the LDM in recent years, and also a goodly portion of possibly true but not related information as well. People have been adding on BS to the bare facts almost since day one, heck Waltz himself may have started it, linking the Peralta story with his own.

Sdcfia wrote


Well I respectfully disagree with your line of reasoning there - people have been broadcasting lost treasure information since the earliest days of writing. Treasure secrets are the hardest kind to keep, and after the original seekers fail (at which point we usually have the first published/public information made available) it is very common for the clues/information to get published and spread around, apparently with the hope that SOMEONE will get lucky and figure out the clues and find the treasure or mine. You personally might well have the intestinal fortitude to keep treasure "Facts" closely guarded secrets, but our history is replete with examples that are the opposite. Look at Julia Thomas for an example, very shortly after her own failure to find Waltz's mine and cache, (and after enlisting help) she did not hesitate to tell her story to a newspaper man - Pierpont C. Bicknell. The Peralta stones were in Life Magazine by 1964,including photos of the stones!

roy..i was speaking in terms of the stone maps..i do not discount the pit mine but i dont think the stone maps have anything to do with the pit mine

 

[Old]

Howdy Lynda,

In my honest opinion they went to the museum as stated by those who keep them. There is no solid proof otherwise. Once an assumption is started the truth is soon forgotten. The flaws and chips on the stones cannot be duplicated. I find nothing missing on the trail maps.

Homar

I thank you for your answer. It adds understanding to know where you're coming from. We don't agree but that's okay. Differences of opinion is what makes it all interesting. Knowing where you are in the thought process sets both ends of the discussion. I think I'm somewhere in the 60 to 70 percent range opposite from your position.

Just to see if we can find any common ground ......isn't it true there are multiple sets of all the maps? A travel set and cast sets previously sold as duplicates. Isn't that the source of the set that hangs in Mr. Feldman's office? Don't they have the chips and flaws? Didn't Frank recently post a picture of a mold/reverse cast? Don't know the exact term for that but I think you can get my drift...its a thing for making more copies.

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
Well I respectfully disagree with your line of reasoning there - people have been broadcasting lost treasure information since the earliest days of writing. Treasure secrets are the hardest kind to keep, and after the original seekers fail (at which point we usually have the first published/public information made available) it is very common for the clues/information to get published and spread around, apparently with the hope that SOMEONE will get lucky and figure out the clues and find the treasure or mine. <cut>

Yes, and notwithstanding a few probable exceptions, how valuable have those broadcast gems been? In the real world, not the dream world. Seems to me that with such good info, a searcher wouldn't have to be lucky, would he?

 

[Oso]

Hmmm video is not viewable for me anymore; now says it's private. Anyone else having that problem?

Thanks,

Oso

 

[Oso]

Hmmm video is not viewable for me anymore; now says it's private. Anyone else having that problem?

Thanks,

Oso

Never mind... it's fixed

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

how ??

 

[Oso]

how ??

I don't have a clue... which might be part of the problem.

 

[Oroblanco]

Yes, and notwithstanding a few probable exceptions, how valuable have those broadcast gems been? In the real world, not the dream world. Seems to me that with such good info, a searcher wouldn't have to be lucky, would he?

We have discussed this before, it certainly seems to be the case that in nearly all of these lost treasure stories, something is wrong with the information we have. Either some clue is flawed or garbled, a direction wrong etc.

From the equal lack of successes from some of the 'private' or proprietary info, we might well deduce that there is some flaw in that information as well. Worse than a flawed piece of information IMHO is when a non-related story gets mixed in with the original, so we have as an example, people looking for the 'trick in the trail' to Waltz's mine, which Waltz never stated and originated from Deering. However flawed information is better than false information, it may be possible to work out what the flaw is, but false info will just lead the searchers wrong - as has been getting added to the LDM in some of the "NEW" information for years now.

Which is NOT to say that the new info brought to light by Ryan, Sarge, Hal, and others is in any way false. This kind of research is very much welcome. Some has been known for a few years but any new information may be helpful.

Please do continue:

 

[coazon de oro]

I thank you for your answer. It adds understanding to know where you're coming from. We don't agree but that's okay. Differences of opinion is what makes it all interesting. Knowing where you are in the thought process sets both ends of the discussion. I think I'm somewhere in the 60 to 70 percent range opposite from your position.

Just to see if we can find any common ground ......isn't it true there are multiple sets of all the maps? A travel set and cast sets previously sold as duplicates. Isn't that the source of the set that hangs in Mr. Feldman's office? Don't they have the chips and flaws? Didn't Frank recently post a picture of a mold/reverse cast? Don't know the exact term for that but I think you can get my drift...its a thing for making more copies.

Howdy Lynda,

Yes there are multiple sets of all the maps. This is the reason assumptions are made that the stones in the museum are not the original. People start seeing things, or insist from their recollection of years gone by that there's is a difference in the color.

You can go to Mike's (gollum) website, he has it posted on the bottom of his posts. Go to Hidden Caches to find about the PSM's. Near the end, thanks Mike's research, you will find that it was in the mid 1980's that the museum decided they needed another set of stone maps for display. A Special Effects company in Phoenix made the molds, and cast about 8 sets. The molds were then sold to an artist who made 25 sets, including half size versions until the molds broke. Don't ask me how the half sized ones were accomplished from the original molds, I am just relating the story.

All the cast sets are one sided just like the ones Mr. Feldman has. Since they were cast from a mold made from the originals, they do have the same chip flaws, but again they are just one sided, and are not real stone. There are no other stones carved on both sides that would look like the originals since the chips can't be duplicated.

No, Frank did not post a picture of a mold/reverse cast, this is just his assumption. It is just a picture that got printed reversed. You can see that the writing on the picture is reversed. Sometimes you can take a negative to develop, and if it's placed backwards, you get a reversed picture.

Homar

 

[Azquester]

Digger,

From what Ryan's contact said that he interviewed the stone trial maps are fake. They look fake or reproduced at the museum. Didn't match the color of the HP map. Actually the HP map is the only Map I've ever considered to be even close to a real map or copy of a real map made of some other material. The stuff I found so many years ago matched what was on that HP stone only. The site matched it after I explored there the HP stone never took me anywhere I lucked onto the site while riding my 700 twin Polaris back in the early 2000's. I've worked reversing it ever since off and on I cant give up the day job just yet, but, maybe soon.

The HP stone has a lot of what's at this site and also contains many similar links to the HP but, its also missing a lot so it doesn't take much thinking to realize the HP map had sisters other then the THM maps as the site has so much more obvious pieces of the puzzle not shown on HP or TM'S.

Bill,

Understanding that you have put boots on the ground, how many stones do you believe make up the full set? And if you may, will you please elaborate as to which stones are authentic or had authenticity at one time.

Thanks!

 

[Old]

Let's make sure we are talking about the same picture. Frank; forgive me. I'm reposting your photo.



This is the photo Frank posted. I rotated it so the writing is easier to read. No tricks, not magic, no changing anything, just rotated. Notice the writing is as it should be.

In the thread where this was originally posted HAL reversed the image and caused the writing (and the image) to appear backward. Its Hal's finagled copy that has the backward writing.

You are good at this so I know you can spot what I'm seeing. The lighting in this photo is coming down across the picture. The lighting clearly shows the lines and heart are elevated. I don't know squat about casting but a quick review of demo tapes in Google talk about with important works or things that will have multiple castings its customary to make a master mold. The master is then used to making working molds. The working molds are what's used to produce the product. Its pretty evident to me Franks picture is the master mold. The written words tend to confirm that.

 

[Old]

Here's Franks original, just as it appeared. No rotation

 

[cw0909]

old i noticed that Franks img has a shadow on the upper lobe
as well as the lower lobe, so i think the reflection on the left
is maybe a flash from a camera

edit this should read not a mold

and it does look like a mold,

was wondering if the piece it is
sitting on is soild, no hole for the heart

 

[Hal Croves]

Let's make sure we are talking about the same picture. Frank; forgive me. I'm reposting your photo.

View attachment 1188000

This is the photo Frank posted. I rotated it so the writing is easier to read. No tricks, not magic, no changing anything, just rotated. Notice the writing is as it should be.

In the thread where this was originally posted HAL reversed the image and caused the writing (and the image) to appear backward. Its Hal's finagled copy that has the backward writing.

You are good at this so I know you can spot what I'm seeing. The lighting in this photo is coming down across the picture. The lighting clearly shows the lines and heart are elevated. I don't know squat about casting but a quick review of demo tapes in Google talk about with important works or things that will have multiple castings its customary to make a master mold. The master is then used to making working molds. The working molds are what's used to produce the product. Its pretty evident to me Franks picture is the master mold. The written words tend to confirm that.

Old,

I am not sure what to make of your post. Its a bit antagonistic however, I am going to respond for sake of accuracy if nothing more.

One thing that I will say is that you and Frank are absolutely 100% wrong, this picture is of a cast object or the original stone map. It is NOT A MOLD. Anyone who can't tell the difference between a cast object and a mold should think about seeking advice from a professional. I will try to appeal to your impartial, logical, scientific side one last time and then leave you be. A mold is a negative impression of a positive object. (which is why I reversed "finagled" the photo... get it?) When liquid material is poured into a mold, like wax, resin, or liquid metals, that cavity (negative space) and all its reversed surface details are filled in, forming a positive. Like the cast positive (if its not the stone original) in Franks photograph. It is a positive, perhaps cast from a mold or even the original stone map. It is NOT a mold and especially not a Master Mold.

Linda, stop and look at the heart. It is a cavity, correct? Look at the shadow falling into the cavity. The light source is above and left. If this were a mold, that heart would be raised and cast its own shadow... to the right. That is not the case because this is a photograph of a cast or original object... not a mold. Now take a few minutes and email the photograph to any local University with a sculpture department or a working foundry if you can find one and ask the question yourself. Is it a photograph of a mold or photograph of a cast object, from a mold.

Prove me wrong. I am curious to see how you will respond when you cant.

About your contribution to Ryan. I am not sure why you are being so dramatic. If you provide encouragement and advice to a friend, you are contributing. Nothing too conspiratorial about it. I am honestly not interested in giving any more time to it. I am happy for you. Live & let live.