Carl Zeiss Bronze Medal/Medallion?

[diggummup]

Any help on this one? It measures 2 3/8 " in diameter and almost 1/4" thick, weighs about 4 ounces. German markings? All I can come up with is something to do with the Carl Zeiss Foundation and something about dedicated operations minister of state Dr. Rothe? I don't know. It appears to be bronze and I think the profile is that of Dr. Rothe. Any added would help.

 

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[daroofa]

Found an auction which attributes it to 1920, but not much other info...

Auction link

 

[diggummup]

Found an auction which attributes it to 1920, but not much other info...

Auction link

That's a good start for approx. age and value at least. Thanks.

 

[diggummup]

I managed to find a date of 1918 and the initials A.L. on either bottom side of the shielded bird on the reverse? of this medallion. Anybody else? What is it?

 

[diggummup]

bump

 

[Kenosha Kid]

Rothe held many positions, including more than one "Minister" title. His first name gets spelled Carl or Karl, depending on the linked info.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...r+rothe+carl+zeiss?&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

"The Carl Zeiss donation was created by the physicist and mathematician Ernst Abbe. The charter of foundation dates of 19. May 1889. ... The donation administration was with Weimar ministries for education and cultural. From there came the donation commissioner, who led the supervision across the enterprises. The executive committees of the enterprises were appointed by the donation administration. The first donation commissioner was until 1896 Carl Rothe".

Rothe (1848-1921) retired/resigned in 1918 from his Minister of State position and died in 1921, which would fit the time for the above mentioned dates:

http://geociti.es/CapitolHill/Rotunda/2209/Saxe_Weimar.html

GRAND DUCHY OF SACHSEN / SACHSEN - WEIMAR - EISENACH ~
Staatsminister 1 Jun 1899 - 8 Nov 1918 Karl Friedrich Otto Rothe, resigned at the outbreak of the November Revolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_related_to_Mainz

Honorary Citizen ~ 1898: Dr.jur. Carl Rothe, administrative director of the province Rheinhessen, Ministry of Internal Affairs within the Grand Duchy of Hesse.

http://translate.google.com/transla...-1920&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&prmd=ivns

Honorary Citizen of Jena: Karl Rothe (born July 10, 1848 in Großrudestedt; † 28 April 1921 in Eisenach), Privy Council, Excellency, Minister of State, awarded on 1 August 1908; hat sich um die Stadt und Universität die größten Verdienste erworben. August 1908, the city has the greatest merit and University purchased for.

It may just be a medal honoring his years of service to the Zeiss Foundation, which is why there was only one link to a sale of it (the ebay one above).

Here's a link to The Zeiss Historica Society (hopefully they can help or steer you in the right direction):

http://www.zeisshistorica.org/

 

[diggummup]

Rothe held many positions, including more than one "Minister" title. His first name gets spelled Carl or Karl, depending on the linked info.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...r+rothe+carl+zeiss?&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

"The Carl Zeiss donation was created by the physicist and mathematician Ernst Abbe. The charter of foundation dates of 19. May 1889. ... The donation administration was with Weimar ministries for education and cultural. From there came the donation commissioner, who led the supervision across the enterprises. The executive committees of the enterprises were appointed by the donation administration. The first donation commissioner was until 1896 Carl Rothe".

Rothe (1848-1921) retired/resigned in 1918 from his Minister of State position and died in 1921, which would fit the time for the above mentioned dates:

http://geociti.es/CapitolHill/Rotunda/2209/Saxe_Weimar.html

GRAND DUCHY OF SACHSEN / SACHSEN - WEIMAR - EISENACH ~
Staatsminister 1 Jun 1899 - 8 Nov 1918 Karl Friedrich Otto Rothe, resigned at the outbreak of the November Revolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_related_to_Mainz

Honorary Citizen ~ 1898: Dr.jur. Carl Rothe, administrative director of the province Rheinhessen, Ministry of Internal Affairs within the Grand Duchy of Hesse.

http://translate.google.com/transla...-1920&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&prmd=ivns

Honorary Citizen of Jena: Karl Rothe (born July 10, 1848 in Großrudestedt; † 28 April 1921 in Eisenach), Privy Council, Excellency, Minister of State, awarded on 1 August 1908; hat sich um die Stadt und Universität die größten Verdienste erworben. August 1908, the city has the greatest merit and University purchased for.

It may just be a medal honoring his years of service to the Zeiss Foundation, which is why there was only one link to a sale of it (the ebay one above).

Here's a link to The Zeiss Historica Society (hopefully they can help or steer you in the right direction):

http://www.zeisshistorica.org/

Thanks. I've sent them an email, hopefully i'll get a response. This part -Rothe (1848-1921) retired/resigned in 1918 from his Minister of State position and died in 1921, which would fit the time for the above mentioned dates:

I did not know and in knowing that I would assume you are right about it being a commemorative type medallion honoring his service in the foundation. Thanks. i'll update this if I find out anything more.

 

[diggummup]

Okay I received an email back from the Carl Zeiss Society and here is what they had to say-

Dr. Karl Rothe was the "privy Councillor" of the grand duchy which later became the state of Thuringen in Germany (sort of an Attorney General or states's lawyer) at the time of the ownership of the firm Carl Zeiss Jena and a portion of Schott und Genossen was given to the Carl Zeiss Stiftung. In my mind the Stiftung was a foundation that owned these firms but was governed and overseen by a Board of Trustees from the state, the University of Jena and other organizations as a corporate style board that we know today. The goal was to place the ownership of the firm in a legal entity that would be free from personal and other firm's ownership for the life of the firm. This allowed the firm to be overseen in this manner while a board of management would follow the guidance of that oversight board but run the day to day operation of the firm from a management point of view. It was to guarantee the the benefits of profitability to the local town, the university and the use of a percentage of those profits to research and development and a form of profit sharing.

Dr. Ernst Abbe (the optical scientist) wrote the contract to turn over the firm and the legal framework for running the firm and the protection for the workers. Dr. Karl Rothe was the person with whom he worked who represented the state's legal arm to assure that his intentions and the legal documents were acceptable in a legal manner and that they would represent Abbe's intentions.

With regard to the medal, I cannot make any great contribution but it was not uncommon for such items to be created as a gift or memorial to the person who is named on the medal or to be used as an award to another person for some service or as an honorarium. I have collected some similar items from a much later period which were awards to employees of the firm.

This being said, I would contact Dr. WImmer who is the Archivist for Carl Zeiss and who will probably have a much better insight to your question. I am copying him on this email and you should be able to take his email from the address box on this sending.

Please let me know what you eventually find out. We are a collecting society that is independent from the firm and while well versed in much of the history, we are not professional historians.


I have emailed Dr. Wimmer also. Waiting for a reply. I have found another one for sale though which gives a little more info. but an online German translator is not the same as a translation from someone who actually speaks German. I can make out that the initials of "A.L." that are located on the reverse stand for Adolf Lehnert and the seller has it listed as a "city medal" for the city of Leipzig in Saxony, I don't know how much of this is accurate other than the name of the sculptor or artist.

Here is the link- http://tinyurl.com/24ujpql

 

[Kenosha Kid]

Interesting reply; looking forward to what Dr. Wimmer has to say.

In researching Adolf Lehnert:

Franz Robert Adolf Lehnert (born July 20th, 1862 in Leipzig, died January 6 1948) was a sculptor in Leipzig. He studied in Leipzig in 1880, taught from 1886 to 1924 at the Art Academy in Leipzig. In 1896 he was appointed professor at the Academy for Graphic Art and Stone Sculptors, Leipzig.

Aside from sculpting memorials, the Bismarck Monument and the Leipzig City Hall, he also created busts and medallions for the grave monuments in Leipzig:

http://translate.google.com/transla...nert&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&prmd=ivnso

I checked the link you gave. I found a few other medals he made, in 1911 and 1915 and even some dated after yours:

http://www.ma-shops.com/hossfeld/ca...en&PHPSESSID=5cb858f9230443b2419a4714b914f3b0

1911 - Birthday of Arwed Emminghaus, lent from the Gothaer life insurance

1915- Saxonia Leipzig, city medals of Adolf Lehnert. Bronze medal 1915. On the 25-year old Dienstjubiläum of Otto love-trust as a mayor the city Gotha.

For your medal: Saxonia Leipzig, city medals of Adolf Lehnert. Bronze medal 1918.

1927 - On 100 the year old existence of the Gothaer life insurance. Breast picture E.W. Arnoldis' to the left/breast picture Karl Samwers to the left.

1934 - On the silver wedding of Johanna and Adolf Lehnert. The breast pictures of the pair next to each other to the left/home of one's own of the artist in Mark clover mountain.

It seems like the "city medal" may have been a medal given by the city of Leipzig for important events ... or it was that Lehnert made medals of important people/events in and around the city of Leipzig, on his own and with no city involvement...

 

[diggummup]

I appreciate all the info your giving me, when/if I hear back from Dr.Wimmer I will let you know.

As for;

It seems like the "city medal" may have been a medal given by the city of Leipzig for important events ... or it was that Lehnert made medals of important people/events in and around the city of Leipzig, on his own and with no city involvement...


This is something i'm hoping to find out with a little more research. Thanks again Kenosha Kid

 

[diggummup]

I just checked my email and unfortunately this is what he had to say-



We have such a medallion in our technical collection (dated 1918), but unfortunately we have no documents regarding the medal in our archive.
I'm sorry, that I have no information for you.

Sincerely yours

Dr. Wolfgang Wimmer
Leiter Carl Zeiss Archiv
________

Carl Zeiss AG
Standort Jena / Jena location
Carl Zeiss Archiv / Corporate Archives

D r. W o l f g a n g W i m m e r

Carl-Zeiss-Promenade 10
07745 Jena
Telefon/Phone: +49 36 41/64-2759
Fax: +49 36 41/64-3207
mailto: wimmer@zeiss.de
http://www.zeiss.de

Besuchen Sie unser Virtuelles Museum, unsere Fotodatenbank, unsere Druckschriftendatenbank und unser Online-Findbuch unter "http://www.zeiss.de/archiv".

Visit our Virtual Museum, our Photo Database, our Literature Database and our Online Index at "http://www.zeiss.de/archive
Carl Zeiss AG
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Dr.Theo Spettmann
Vorstand: Dr. Michael Kaschke (Vorsitzender),
Dr. Hermann Gerlinger, Thomas Spitzenpfeil
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Oberkochen, Deutschland
Amtsgericht Ulm, HRB 501 555, USt-IdNr: DE 811 119 940

 

[Kenosha Kid]

I just checked my email and unfortunately this is what he had to say-

Yeah, it is unfortunate your last two contacts had no real info on it. It's also pretty sad that we probably have more info about the medal than they do...

Well, maybe one day it will be known why it was made.