Cannon Experts?

[jeff k]

Can anyone identify what type of bronze cannon this is?

 

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[Montana Jim]

can you part with any specifics? Possible age or length?

 

[jeff k]

Jim... I could, but that would defeat the purpose of my asking. I don't want to put any preconceived notions into the answers. I'll explain later.

 

[Montana Jim]

Jim... I could, but that would defeat the purpose of my asking. I don't want to put any preconceived notions into the answers. I'll explain later.

I understand... thats why I asked "if you could part with specifics". I thought it might be close hold for now.

 

[wwwtimmcp]

most english cannon had 3 sets of 3 numbers on them. any numbers on it ?

 

[ivan salis]

bore size and length-- any markings on it ? a bit of detail might help greatly with the IDing of it.

 

[jeff k]

Guys... I'm trying to see if anyone can identify the type of cannon it is just from the picture. There's a reason to this madness as you'll find out later.

P.S. It's probably Spanish.

 

[Smithbrown]

well, first thing is that the dolphins- the lifting handles- really are in the shape of dolphins; that change took place accross the West from c1760-c1800, so you are looking before that.
The other identifier is the shape of the cascable and from that angle it is very hard to see. It does not look like the round button that becomes common from the mid-17th century onwards. It looks like a longer, waisted type which would indicate earlier rather than later; maybe something like these pictures:
http://www.archeonavale.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=234
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stadhuis_Enkhuizen_Roode_Paard_20081227.jpg
However as I said, it all may down to the angle!
Smithbrown

 

[jeff k]

Smithbrown... Are you saying it could be a culverin like the one below?

 

[Smithbrown]

No, what I am saying is you cannot expect miracles from one lousy, out of focus photo.

I stand by the dolphins, but you need a better picture of the cascable at the end of cannon

Smithbrown

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Looks french ..

 

[ivan salis]

I would say closer photos of the handles are needed (along it lines of relic dudes photo )-- and more overall close up photos in general to have a good chance of properly IDing it --- a fuzzy long distance shot makes it very hard to properly ID it.

 

[jeff k]

OK, here's the story. There were two obsolete culverins being shipped back to Spain on the Mercedes. Odyssey said they only found one (2nd photo), but Spain claims the cannon in my 1st photo is the second culverin. I wanted to see if anyone here could conclude the same thing just from that photo. I personally thought it was a stretch of the imagination due to the quality of the pic.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

OK, here's the story. There were two obsolete culverins being shipped back to Spain on the Mercedes. Odyssey said they only found one (2nd photo), but Spain claims the cannon in my 1st photo is the second culverin. I wanted to see if anyone here could conclude the same thing just from that photo. I personally thought it was a stretch of the imagination due to the quality of the pic.

Just think Jeff, Odyssey spent 7 days extracting the coins and had every opportunity to retrieve a cannon, Why didn't they . All the evidence points to the Mercedes, Odyssey have had two years to go over all the coins and have not found one coin
from beyond 1804, the facts speak the truth !
Ossy

 

[jeff k]

I would say closer photos of the handles are needed (along it lines of relic dudes photo )-- and more overall close up photos in general to have a good chance of properly IDing it --- a fuzzy long distance shot makes it very hard to properly ID it.

Ivan... Spain's experts had no trouble identifying it from that shot.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

I would say closer photos of the handles are needed (along it lines of relic dudes photo )-- and more overall close up photos in general to have a good chance of properly IDing it --- a fuzzy long distance shot makes it very hard to properly ID it.

Ivan... Spain's experts had no trouble identifying it from that shot.

That's the difference Jeff, they are experts, a bit like the coin's, and you know what I mean .
Ossy

 

[ivan salis]

more and beyond -- lets say it was the mercedes --a spanish govt vessel --clearly it was basically 100% blown to splinters according to all the historical accounts with the money being scattered on the ocean floor -- the ships own manifest listed the money onboard as "privately owned funds" being shipped on the vessel for security reasons (thus its NOT spanish govt treasury money or royal funds )-- it was "private property"--- now please explain to me--- via what legal means how the act of the vessel sinking coverted those peoples "private property " into spanish govt owned funds --- because unless it did -- the heirs of the folks shipping that money are the "legal rightful" owners of it and they have the legal right to recover they own property --don't they?--- odyssey as finders , recover's and conservationist of these coins --so that they be properly reunited with the true "legal owners" deserves a nice % of the finds for their hard work .

the spanish govt is trying to grab "privately owned funds" by claiming it as "govt funds" being it was on a spanish govt ship -- thus stealing the money from the legal heirs of the original shippers who according to the vessels very own manifest -"owned the coins"

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

more and beyond -- lets say it was the mercedes --a spanish govt vessel --clearly it was basically 100% blown to splinters according to all the historical accounts with the money being scattered on the ocean floor -- the ships own manifest listed the money onboard as "privately owned funds" being shipped on the vessel for security reasons (thus its NOT spanish govt treasury money or royal funds )-- it was "private property"--- now please explain to me--- via what legal means how the act of the vessel sinking coverted those peoples "private property " into spanish govt owned funds --- because unless it did -- the heirs of the folks shipping that money are the "legal rightful" owners of it and they have the legal right to recover they own property --don't they?--- odyssey as finders , recover's and conservationist of these coins --so that they be properly reunited with the true "legal owners" deserves a nice % of the finds for their hard work .

the spanish govt is trying to grab "privately owned funds" by claiming it as "govt funds" being it was on a spanish govt ship -- thus stealing the money from the legal heirs of the original shippers who according to the vessels very own manifest -"owned the coins"

All I can say Ivan is that the legal heirs will have more of chance claiming against Spain than claiming against Odyssey.
Odyssey are only using the Private merchant tack for their benefit only.
Here's a cannon you can look at !

 

[ivan salis]

the legal heirs can file against anyone at anytime -- ownership is ownership --- that is if the money is not grabbed by peru as looted natural resources by taken by the spanish military who ruled over the area by force of arms using the local population as "forced" labor thus exploiting and stealing from the decendants of peru its natural resources and heritage .

if i"the money" held to be "spanish" owned goods --my point is its the "private citizens" money --even if its being shipped on a spanish govt ship * that sank -- the fact that it sank did not change the "ownership" of the funds -- its still "private property" of the persons who shipped it and thus their heirs -- since the persons who shipped the money are clearly listed on the manifest --their lawful next of kin can make claims for their "funds"---of course a hefty "find, recovery and conservation fee" will of course be applied to it for odyssey's hard work I'm sure.

bottom line -- its not spanish "govt" money --if its deemed to be "spanish owned" -- it still "private property" of the "spanish" folks who shipped it --as show on the "manifest" --- exsample say jose smith shipped 1000 gold coins --- fine add up all the money "recorded" as shipped -- if say 80% of it was recovered -- then everyone who shipped money on the vessel according to the manifest is entitled to a 80% pay back off the money found -- so jose smiths hiers are "entitled" to 800 gold coins --minus the "finding , recovery and conseravation fees"--of say 50% so 400 coins for odyssey and 400 coins for the heirs of jose smith --***** if the spanish govt had money on board listed on the manifest then give back to spain out of the money found whatever money was listed on the manifest as "spanish govt or royal funds" at a rate of 100% thus --the spanish govt will then have got all thats legally theirs (thus they are no longer a party in the matter having being made "fully whole" by law)-- and then split the remaining money amoung the heirs as above ---

once spain is given its govt cut of funds if any on board and a % split is made and approved by a judge --the funds can be set aside for the heirs using the manifest -- x amount for the hiers of jose smith -- x amount for jow blow based upon the return % and how much they shipped ( eazy )-- then odysseu can take its share and do as it pleases with it. --- spain gets 100% of any govt funds restored to it for "free"-- the hiers get a long lost uncles money dropped upon them (its their "lucky day")--and odyssey makes money as well -- if deemed to be "spanish money" that seems fair to all.

 

[neo2868]

The first picture is extrememly similar to a 3rd class gun called a pedrero which was designed to fire stone balls in order to break apart and sink the enemy ships. the pedrero was the only gun that remained to fire stone shot and never switched to cast iron or lead.