Calif. state beaches story. In-regards to examples of "legal"

[Tom_in_CA]

Told this story years ago, but it bears repeating:

In the early days of the internet and forums (late '90s or early 2000's), there was a small forum for just our central Coast CA . 15 or 20 persons chiming in about local md'ing, show & tell, etc...

One day, one of the forum participants made a post about an distasteful experience that had gone down:

He was on Seacliff state beach, south of Santa Cruz. Some dude in a business suit, carrying a briefcase, interrupted him. Began griping saying "you can't do that here". At first , my friend thought this was a joke or something. But the more he talked to this fellow, he could see he was serious. And the man in the business suit was pointing to the cement ship/pier behind them (that only dates to the 1920s) saying something about history and cultural heritage, etc... So my friend perceived that this was some sort of archaeologist talking to him.

In the days that followed, we pieced more of the story together. Here's what was going on: An archaeologist from an inland university (Sacramento ? San Rafael ?) had been invited to be the featured speaker at some sort of history symposium day at a little beach-side museum. The museum mostly deals with natural history (sea urchins, star fish, kelp, etc....), but does have a few panels/exhibits on the pier . Which used to have a gambling casino in the roaring '20s.

So it was just a fluke that this archaeologist dude *just happened* to be at that beach that day. And as he was walking to the door of the museum *just happened* to glance out onto the beach. And my md'r friend had *just happened* to be down there swinging his detector. Doh !

Now my friend is not one to "take gruff" from anyone. So the two of them squared off. My friend heard him say that this applied to "state beaches", which ... my friend immediately realized the silly-ness of this. Because 90% of the CA coast line beaches are administered by the state (the rest are a smattering of city beaches, and a few fed). And to make matters even MORE silly: This particular beach is actually among the NEWEST beaches . Since the roads leading down from the cliff, and the pier, etc... is only late teens/early '20s origin.

Hence my friend told this suit & tie guy: "you're wrong" & "bug off" . The archie , seeing that he was getting nowhere with the md'r , stormed off. Saying he was going to go fetch a ranger and policeman who "....would see about this....".

My friend therefore continued detecting for 4 or 5 more minutes. But the more he thought about this perplexing exchange .... the more he began to get the willies. Thinking "hmmm, MAYBE I DON'T want to be around when/if this guy returns".

So he started the hike back to his car & the parking lot. The whole time surveying the landscape to see if someone was going to approach him. But no one did. He loaded his machine, got into his vehicle, and .... No one ever came out to talk to him.

He reported the incident on our forum. We all got a good laugh because we KNOW you can hunt state of CA beaches here, and it's never been an issue. Right? Hence this fellow is certainly mistaken. Right ? And so it's merely a matter of simply looking up applicable laws/rules, in order to prove the guy wrong. Eh ?

But ... the more we looked into it (CA state park's dept. laws), the more we began to realize: "Perhaps we better leave good enough alone". Because admittedly there *is* boiler plate verbiage about cultural heritage. And technically it *is* possible to (gasp) find a 51 yr. old coin. But realistically speaking, this has/had never been applied to the beaches. The only time any such heritage issues might get applied, is if you were snooping around obvious historic sensitive monuments on inland parks.

So while the thread STARTED OUT as a solidarity that we would gather the data, send it to him, to show his mistake. We ended up deciding to do absolutely nothing at all. Because truth be told: He would be hard-pressed to find any local ranger to care less . They just wave "hi" to us. And truth be told: He would no doubt probably just go back to his ivory castle and never see an md'r again (it was a fluke in the first place).

And now .... 15 or 20 yrs. later , you can still hunt all the state of CA administered beaches till you're blue in the face.

The reason I find this story to apply to the broader picture of md'ing vs legalities, is:

a) This is an example of how .... if you asked ENOUGH bureaucrats, long enough and hard enough, that you can ALWAYS find someone to say "no". And ...

b) heck, they might even be able to cite dire sounding stuff in the minutia, eh ?

c) And in the case of md'ing, it's possible that if a question such as "can I metal detect?" gets floated around govt. offices (for the "FAQ"), then the "pressing question" DOES often end up on an archie's desk. Since it's in their domain of 'what if something old pops up?'. So that ...

d) presto, you'd get a no. Which makes it's way onto wonderful compendium lists. Where someone has attempted to make a list of rules for various entities. And then you end up with a place supposedly "off-limits", where it was never an issue before. Or that .... quite frankly ... you could still go and never hear so much as 'boo'. So too ... using this case as an example, it would be possible to find some "official" stance on state of CA beaches, that would totally fly in the face of actual reality.

e) Any attempt to "set this guy straight" or "get this clarified", could have ended up swatting hornet's nests and making matters worse.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A Handbook of Civil War Bullets and Cartridges - Grab it through Amazon!

[Tom_in_CA]

Yet for some reason, this is exactly what most md'rs seem to do. Whenever they get a "scram", they don't consider that it might be a possible isolated fluke. Instead they assume: "Oh no, such & such place is off-limits" . And promptly start threads and compendiums with this new-found information. Or they assume "I must go up the ladder of command to get this clarified and/or over-turned".

So with stories like this in mind: I read of other persons who get a scram . And make a post saying "such & such place is off-limits" . Or "help me start a petition to get a place opened up" , or "the sky is falling". Or "I'm going to go to his superiors and get this clarified", etc..... But I sometimes wonder if they will just make it worse. Or whether the place they're fretting about is truly off-limits.

And humorously, if I *DO* pose my suggestion that it's not really a rule (or ... at least ... no one cares or that it could have been a fluke, etc...), guess what the skittish person will do next, to decide if it's 1) really a rule, and 2) does anyone really care ? THEY ASK. Of course. Do you begin to see the vicious circle ?

Hence my "bee in the bonnet" haha

 

[Honest Samuel]

Always good to hear from you.

 

[JohnWhite]

So I take it that detecting at CA Mission sites is off limits...

 

[RustyGold]

Personally, I can’t see what the problem would ever be (historically or cultural heritage-wise) since they dump tons of sand on our beaches that is procured elsewhere either off shore or brought in by truck. Both which upsets the balance of actual historical finds for the area.
Don’t ever kick a hornet’s nest. Good post Tom, thanks.

 

[Stuperduke]

Awesome story, goes with a question I had a bit ago!

Thanks for the story. Living in San Francisco, none of our beaches are legal to detect which is pretty frustrating. Just in speaking with my younger friends, the mindset about what we do is pretty incredible from both the legal perspective as well as the ethical perspective. It is pretty astounding you can still detect golden gate park legally. The part in which you say if you ask enough a yes can easily turn into a no. I hit a lot of BLM land up north but it gets pretty dicey in regards to the split of land from national forest, claims, to open BLM, to historic sites. I generally just stick to BLM, research claims in the area I look to detect, and keep myself out of site. If I know I am being ethical and trying to abide by laws, I feel like if I were ever in a situation to explain myself to the law, it would probably just be a warning situation. Finding all shades of grey in this hobby is pretty daunting and has left me discouraged from detecting numerous areas that I would love to. "LEGAL" seems to be a pretty hard thing to pin down in this state, and getting permissions from people up in gold country is even more difficult. Thanks for the post, always happy to read stuff like this to help my newbie brain out.

 

[dsrtdwg1]

Yet for some reason, this is exactly what most md'rs seem to do. Whenever they get a "scram", they don't consider that it might be a possible isolated fluke. Instead they assume: "Oh no, such & such place is off-limits" . And promptly start threads and compendiums with this new-found information. Or they assume "I must go up the ladder of command to get this clarified and/or over-turned".

So with stories like this in mind: I read of other persons who get a scram . And make a post saying "such & such place is off-limits" . Or "help me start a petition to get a place opened up" , or "the sky is falling". Or "I'm going to go to his superiors and get this clarified", etc..... But I sometimes wonder if they will just make it worse. Or whether the place they're fretting about is truly off-limits.

And humorously, if I *DO* pose my suggestion that it's not really a rule (or ... at least ... no one cares or that it could have been a fluke, etc...), guess what the skittish person will do next, to decide if it's 1) really a rule, and 2) does anyone really care ? THEY ASK. Of course. Do you begin to see the vicious circle ?

Hence my "bee in the bonnet" haha

I agree, when confronted I do not engage anyone. I don't wait for the reading of the riot act or the questioning if it is "ok" to be doing this. I never give them a chance to tell me not to do it or don't come back.....because I do, just at a different time.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Trolls comments deleted.

 

[Slingshot]

On what I consider to be public property I NEVER ASK, but just suit up and dig. I have been accosted by people before and told I can't do that here, so I just pack up and leave, but ALWAYS come back on another day and have never been accosted again at the same site, EVER. So, my motto is dig it now or dig it later, but it's going to get dug!

 

[Terry Soloman]

Don't ask. Don't tell.

 

[thrillathahunt]

Thank God for PRIVATE PROPERTY with owners permission.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

So I take it that detecting at CA Mission sites is off limits...

Hey there John-White: Of the 21 missions, only 1 of them is entirely state owned property. That would be La Purisima. And sure: Cultural heritage laws would kick in. Thus ... sure ... you can not hunt that one . But the other 20 are private property. Owned by the church. And they can grant permission if-they-want.

But cutting to the chase: They will probably say no. HOWEVER, I know for a fact of 6 or 7 instances (won't go into detail) of permissions being granted to md at 4 or 5 of the missions.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Personally, I can’t see what the problem would ever be (historically or cultural heritage-wise) since they dump tons of sand on our beaches that is procured elsewhere either off shore or brought in by truck. Both which upsets the balance of actual historical finds for the area....

Good to hear from you rusty-gold. Yes: The usual song & dance (admittedly valid) reasons for cultural heritage laws (protecting our past @ sensitive monuments) DOES NOT APPLY to beaches. Because, sure, the sand there gets washed out one stormy season. And then sands back up the following springs, etc... And then, sure: The beach is altered by man with Jetties (to trap sand) , dredging (to open harbor mouths), beach rip-rap, etc....

Thus all context has utterly been lost. Depth has no correlation to age of objects. You and I and all common sense folks KNOW this intuitively. However, the fact still remains: The same state parks' dept. laws/rules that historically get applied to obvious historic sensitive monuments on land: It's the exact same park's depth that administers their state park beaches. Hence, technically, no reason why the same laws/rules wouldn't apply to each.

REALISTICALLY, it's as you say: Common sense tells you that they're apples vs oranges. And No one, except perhaps 2 or 3 archies in the entire state cares less. So is it the md'ing community's obligation to "rush around like a chicken with their head cut off" trying to convince those 2 or 3 persons ? Or simply realize that .... odds are .... you'll never bump into those persons ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey there stuperduke. I'm about 1.5-ish to 2 hrs. south of you. I do a lot of md'ing in San Franciso. Yes, golden gate park and several other parks. Did you read the story in Western and Eastern treasures 2007 issue of the Garfield park demolition that went down ? Lots of fun hunting during that park scrape.

..... Living in San Francisco, none of our beaches are legal to detect ....

This is not entirely true. It's only the beaches administered by the GGNRA. And if you look at a map, you can see that not all your beaches are federal. Several other beaches are state, city, etc.....

And even those (parts of Stinson, parts of Ocean beach, etc...) that ARE GGNRA .... I have heard some humorous stories over the years about those stretches. Yes I have heard of a few "scrams" (typically in more recent years). But other person's stories that circulate go more like this: Someone (who simply doesn't know any better) goes to the beach. And .... has gone for up to several years ENTIRELY UN-BOTHERED. Imagine their surprise, when they start to talk to other md'rs (join a club, or hop on a forum) and hear something different ? In one particular case, the person-in-question figured he would just keep going. SINCE IT WAS ENTIRELY OBVIOUS no one cared (or knew). Not saying to "throw caution to the wind", but.... just sayin' .

Another time an md'r I know got called upon to help a lady find a lost ring "at the beach". As the two of them strategized, she told him which beach she'd be taking him to. Turned out to be one of the GGNRA stretches. He fretted about the "legality" of it. Ie.: should he go hither and yonder looking for someone to give him a 1-day pass or permission ? Since, of course, this was a legitimate need/hunt. In the end, he decided to just print out her Craigslist lost & found ad (which was entirely legitimate) and just carry it with him during the hunt. So that if anyone griped, he'd just pull that out to show them.

And in the process of musing the pro's and con's (leading to his decision to "just go"), he mused jokingly about making super wide berths around the suspected search zone (the exact beach towel location she suspected). He ended up searching for hours. No one ever said so much as "boo" to him. So a few of us joked that we should all just made a craigslist ad, and "go look for a ring". Again, not saying to throw caution to the wind.

Also: Whereas the state of CA stuff in my post is only about ANCILLARY verbiage, I will admit that stuff you're alluding to about GGNRA, is not "ancillary". It may in fact be specific. So again I stress: Do not construe what I'm saying to be "help yourself" in the case of your GGNRA stretches.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...I do not engage anyone. ....

Good to hear from you dsrtdwg1. Haven't seen any posts from you for awhile.

A buddy of mine was just passing through your area in the last couple of days. Found a park there (within 30 min. circle of you) where .... in the space of a few hrs, each of them had 10 or 12 silver each (inc. a few barbers). Better git your butt in gear. It sounded compelling enough that I may include that as a side-trip on my next md'ing venture to So. CA.

But as you know: The cities in your area only date to the 1910's at the earliest (the invention of air conditioners, and the introduction of irrigation/agriculture to create row-crops there). So barbers is the utmost earliest any of those parks would give up. Still though, seems the parks haven't got much pressure. They also tried another park after that, in another one of the towns your way. And found that one to be entirely clad and fill dirt. So i guess it's just hit & miss.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... come back on another day and have never been accosted again at the same site, ...

This is hit & miss, and site-specific admonition. Yes I agree that .... like in my story, stuff that happens to us is just "flukes". But on the other hand, we can not say that ALL "scrams" are flukes. Have to judge each one on its merits. If someone is skittish, they can look it up for themselves (to see if an actual "no md'ing" law or rule exists). But IF NOT, then yes: I do not construe a "scram" to constitute gospel law. As you say, give lip service.

Especially for nicely manicured park turf. Because, let's be honest: md'ing has ... uh .... "connotations" (that you might be about to leave a hole). So in cases like that, sure, it's a case by case basis, where ... sure ... it might just be a fluke. Where, like nose-picking, you just choose more discreet times in the future, so as not to offend the squeemish.

 

[dsrtdwg1]

Good to hear from you dsrtdwg1. Haven't seen any posts from you for awhile.

A buddy of mine was just passing through your area in the last couple of days. Found a park there (within 30 min. circle of you) where .... in the space of a few hrs, each of them had 10 or 12 silver each (inc. a few barbers). Better git your butt in gear. It sounded compelling enough that I may include that as a side-trip on my next md'ing venture to So. CA.

But as you know: The cities in your area only date to the 1910's at the earliest (the invention of air conditioners, and the introduction of irrigation/agriculture to create row-crops there). So barbers is the utmost earliest any of those parks would give up. Still though, seems the parks haven't got much pressure. They also tried another park after that, in another one of the towns your way. And found that one to be entirely clad and fill dirt. So i guess it's just hit & miss.

Hey Tom,

In the past 4-5 months we have shifted focus away from those horrible alkali/fill dirt parks! Kinda of concentrating on the remote/abandoned desert sites. Lots of rusty flat iron to keep me on my toes. The much more sparse finds are pre WW2 or older.....but you already knew that. Hope your buddy has good luck with his low desert expedition.

 

[Honest Samuel]

We all enjoy reading professor Tom great interesting comments.