Calif Dredging ??? Exceptions?

[Tony_agr]

I have a small very seasonal creek on my property.. it only has water when it rains and dries out very quickly.. there are no fish in this creek and I'm not sure if it has an official name? sure would like to put a small 1" trash pump in it to get the material in the bedrock.. which is slate ,not the flat side but the end, makes it very tough to get the gold in the cracks.. I could wait until May when its dry to do,doesn't hurt to ask though.
anybody know?.. I certainly don't want to ask the DFG as they don't want you to do anything that puts a few bucks in your pockets or is any fun..
Thanks

 

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[ClaimStake]

no problems if its a seasonal creak.

 

[ratled]

You want the official legal answer or the one you want to hear? Could you get away with it - maybe, but that wouldn't make it legal

What the DFG will tell you

The use of vacuum or suction dredge equipment, otherwise known as suction dredging, is currently prohibited and unlawful throughout California.


Sadly everything that is mechanical or uses a motor OF ANY KIND is considered a dredge in CA....

 

[ClaimStake]

we already asked, they don't have jurisdiction in non running water, or on private property. DWR has jurisdiction on all running waterways.

it really depends on the creak. if its just a wash, i'd say have at it.

dry land dredging is still legal as long as you're 150ft from any active waterway.

the DWR is currently trying to get people to pay for a $600 permit to pump water anywhere in calif.
legal problem with that though is it's an unreasonable fine/fee.

 

[ratled]

If your are going to quote regs please be accurate. The use of ANY motor within 300' of the active water way for the purpose of gold mining is illegal according to the state. The state claims EVERY drop of water in the boundaries of the state is Waters of the Sate and DFW most certainly will claim being the Jurisdiction Having Authority of them...... including private property. And before it's asked you do NOT have federal mining rights on private property and are at the (or the lack of) mercy of the state. The State Water Resource Control Board will also try and claim jurisdiction of seasonal waterways.

ratled

 

[ClaimStake]

yes 100 yards, sorry for that.

the DWR and DF&G are regulatory agencies they have no true legal authority. they can only follow the "code" of law, internal regulations mean nothing.

and I cant find anything saying we don't have mineral rights anymore.

you can still have a boat with an engine on the water, and you can run a hookah. or other gas powered equipment. you can still run a high banker in a creak but you have to make sure all sediment is settled out somehow before the water is returned to the water way.

just no vacuum suction. dry land is still good just stay 300ft from the bank.

an agent is an agent, not law enforcement. they can claim and say whatever they like. and an alphabet agent, LEO, judge, and most bureaucrats can be sued personally for professional incompetence, harassment, impeding progress, etc.

don't let the gooberment push you around.

sb 670
ftp://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/sen/sb_0651-0700/sb_670_bill_20090519_amended_sen_v98.html

nothing in there about high banking, water pumping, or dry land.

 

[Alex Burke]

Also slate is sometimes good I'm not a pro but I like to try and break the slate with a hammer as decomposed slate often holds good gold. Almost all of the picker's I have found in worked out areas have been found in slate outcrops.

 

[ratled]

Please post what the law says not what you want it to say when advising others.

The Office of Administrative Law (OAL) certified the 2012 suction dredge regulations as a matter of law section 5653 and as will the officer who is going to arrest you is concerned. CA SB 637 that took affect 1 Jan 2016 amended section 5653 and states " is the use of a mechanized or motorized system for removing or assisting in the removal of, or the processing of, material from the bed, bank, or channel of a river, stream, or lake in order to recover minerals." Yes a hookah is motorized and yes they will go after you that if you are using that for gold. Since the motorized pump to pump your water is within 300' of the water for a highbanker it will get DFW officers after you... and yes DFW officers have PC 832 powers <- that's police powers of arrest.

If you are still stuck on SB 670 you are about 5 years behind the times. You can read about SB 637- Allen here Bill Text - SB-637 Suction dredge mining: permits.
Don't forget AB 120 and SB 1018 which have not been finalized and were stayed in place (and in affect) by Judge Ochoa this last January.

yes 100 yards, sorry for that.

the DWR and DF&G are regulatory agencies they have no true legal authority. they can only follow the "code" of law, internal regulations mean nothing.

and I cant find anything saying we don't have mineral rights anymore.

you can still have a boat with an engine on the water, and you can run a hookah. or other gas powered equipment. you can still run a high banker in a creak but you have to make sure all sediment is settled out somehow before the water is returned to the water way.

just no vacuum suction. dry land is still good just stay 300ft from the bank.

an agent is an agent, not law enforcement. they can claim and say whatever they like. and an alphabet agent, LEO, judge, and most bureaucrats can be sued personally for professional incompetence, harassment, impeding progress, etc.

don't let the gooberment push you around.

sb 670
ftp://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/sen/sb_0651-0700/sb_670_bill_20090519_amended_sen_v98.html

nothing in there about high banking, water pumping, or dry land.

 

[ClaimStake]

yeah...already read it and many others.

let me post that section in full for ya,

(g) For purposes of this section and Section 5653.1, the use of vacuum or suction dredge equipment, also known as "suction dredging", is the use of a mechanized or motorized system for removing or assisting in the removal of, or the processing of, material from the bed, bank, or channel of a river, stream, or lake in order to recover minerals. This section and Section 5653.1 do not apply to, prohibit, or otherwise restrict nonmotorized recreational mining activities, including panning for gold.

don't leave out the good parts.

637 isn't much different from 670. that just happened to be the link I copied.

The PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Course (PC 832 Course) is the minimum training standard for California peace officers as specified in Commission Regulation 1005. This training may be met by successful completion of a basic training course (e.g., Regular Basic Course, Specialized Investigators' Basic Course, and Level III Modular Format Course) or as a separate stand-alone certified course.

ROFL... got a warrant, mall cop.

 

[ratled]

I know you believe what you think but I also know what the state believes, and is acting upon. So yes that Blue Bowl that is self contained and fed with a TEA SPOON within 300' of the water way is considered a suction dredge under the revised 5653 regulations by DFW and they have already been enforcing it at that level.

So please go forth and do what you want but please don't advise folks who are not as all knowing as you who are asking for bonifide help to break the law. And yes a bad law, and even an illegal law, will still be enforced.

ratled

 

[ClaimStake]

site an example of someone being arrested for high banking.

I found this but this isn't code of law. therefor irrelevant.
http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/folsom/recreational_gold.print.html

High banking is not allowed and is not considered casual or recreational use
The use of suction dredges, machinery, winches, water pumps, or explosives is not considered to be casual or recreational use

legalese, gota love it.

 

[ClaimStake]

for your infotainment.



regulations are not laws!

 

[Hoser John]

Good try Ratled but there are none so blind as those who refuse to see the world of reality. John

 

[Goldwasher]

before 637 they really had no way to write a ticket. After and the reason they pushed it is to firm up their intent. ratled is correct in that according to the swr they have jurisdiction over the waterways. Old hydro pits etc. dryland work is very doable as not an "Active" waterway". I wouldn't hang my hat on the fact that the creek is dry part of the year.
I agree with claimstake that the way the state regs are go against frederal statuates. That only helps you onpublic lands. if you are on private land or county or state swr can and will regulate and fine you unless you jump through their hoops...maybe form a non-profit enviro group and rub it in the M.E.Gg.s faces ...ick.

when we were going to the senate hearings and spreading the word about the anti dredging(637) bill as thats what it is it was guised as a way to consolidate jurisdiction but, its an anti mining schemee...I stated it was unlawful against claim owners and public land exploration and all it would do is create more time in court...both waiting on the consolidated cases and Brandons plus any new cases under the new regulations. I do not know of any citations under the new regulations as written in 637.

claiming regulations arent laws doesn't cut it hunting regs...fishing etc are all 'Regulations"...just try and get out of a poaching ticket based on that....comparing miners to people trying to avoid d.u.i checkpoints.....NOPE.

I am not saying it is illegal to dredge or run motors. I am saying it is illegal to make regulations that stop us on public lands and they are indeed trying to create a cloud of intimidation, confusion, misinformation etc......

Ive heard numerous times that the El Dorado county D.A. will not bring a case against a miner.

I say keep quiet and be smart. My defense will be that I did my due dilligence and as a claim holder I am following federal rules on my claim and it is confusing beyond that.....the mining law tells me I am supposed to dig and develop...the state says that I can't with out them telling me how I can. Which just equates to paying money and still being told no...and a judge and case laws says in many ways that the federal laws apply to me and the state is full of itself as well as other things.

Just don't get caught if you do you won't be getting your judgement in the field theres not much you can do about that so be prepared for what may come after.

 

[Tony_agr]

Ok so sorry for opening this can of worms... I read the law.. my grey area is that this is not a fulltime waterway.. the closet body of real water is the So Fork American .. but when the water does run it runs through Gold bug park and eventually into the River..I guess I'll bite the bullet and check with DFG (DFW) maybe I can strike up a conversation with one of the officer's I see around Placerville regularly.. If I get a clear concise response I'll post it here. Yes I probably could get away with it. But what if I didn't? I dont think there is enough gold to pay for my defense (which would be.....?)
Thank you everyone for the input and advise.. maybe we'll meet up at the GPAA show or the ICMJ show
Just as an FYI.. this is private land owned by me.. my home

 

[mytimetoshine]

Just don't get caught...problem solved..

 

[chlsbrns]

Their definition of a stream includes streams that are episodic.

 

[chlsbrns]

we already asked, they don't have jurisdiction in non running water, or on private property. DWR has jurisdiction on all running waterways.

it really depends on the creak. if its just a wash, i'd say have at it.

dry land dredging is still legal as long as you're 150ft from any active waterway.

the DWR is currently trying to get people to pay for a $600 permit to pump water anywhere in calif.
legal problem with that though is it's an unreasonable fine/fee.

A dry stream is not dry land dredging. A dry stream is still a stream.

 

[ClaimStake]

goldwasher great post, you hit the nail on the head.

the dui checkpoint thing was only to point out that the agencies don't even know the law a lot of the time. they just do what their superiors tell them.

hunting, fishing, logging, etc. regs. are covered in the law codes.

regulations define fees/permits and locations/time of year, not whether something is legal altogether. laws define regulations not the other way around. regulations are like dials on a machine defined by laws.

bottom line for high banking. according to the dwr you can not deface the embankment (without a permit). 300ft from the high water line, any water you pump must be returned in the same state it was removed. specific definition of what is and isn't a creek is unclear. DWR has jurisdiction of all california water. including the puddle in your backyard. if you pay for the water or pump it from a well. you may use it as you like.

reality is what you make it. if you don't someone else will, regardless if you agree with it. so what is reality, a bunch of enviros. pushing a hidden corporate agenda using psyops methods. conspiracy is a crime, if you can prove that's what it is. staunch bias with complete disregard to the oppositions logic provides self evidence.

sorry for the debate guys, no hard feelings. these are some interesting times.

thankfully my encounters with the F&G have been rather pleasant, they get a kick out of the gravity dredge. most don't seam to agree with the moratorium.

 

[Reed Lukens]

goldwasher great post, you hit the nail on the head.

thankfully my encounters with the F&G have been rather pleasant, they get a kick out of the gravity dredge. most don't seam to agree with the moratorium.

Most of our encounters are pleasant when they are speaking to you in person... Even when they get caught trying to steal your equipment...
But let's not forget how they present themselves against us illegal miners on tv -