BUtton WHAT KIND

[diggerthedog]

My wife found this old button the other day, I know its from around the 1800's give or take, Dose anyone know what kind it is or type, or can anyone find it in there coin book, Thanks Mike

 

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[diggerthedog]

I meen there button book!!

 

[Diamond Spike]

It looks like a naval button to me

Diamond Spike

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

I know I've seen that particular "large-eagle-standing-on-large-shield" symbol somewhere ...but I can't place it at the moment.

The button-metal sure looks like excavated pewter looks. That tends to place your button as being somewhere in the Colonial-to-1820 time-period.

I can't be absolutly certain from your photo ...but there appears to be a "draped flag" (hanging from a pole) set beside the right and left of the lower part of the shield.

I'll keep researching. Meanwhile... I think you've got a significantly valuable button, so please don't toss it into a shoe-box with a bunch of miscellaneous dug junk. Store it carefully, and if possible take it to a relic-show for examination by some of the top "Early-American" button experts. Again, I think you've got "a good one" ...so please take good care of it.

Regards,
TheCannonballGuy

 

[nhbenz]

Well, I don't have a button book (or a coin book for that matter ) BUT, I know thats from the St Johns military academy. I have one as well that I researched. I'm trying to find the site that I'd previously found that explained when they switched away from this exact pattern... I think in the 1920's, but the modern pattern has less "stuff" inside the shield.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Diggerthedog and Ben, what state did you find your buttons in?
I'm asking because I've been doing web-research on "St. John's Military Academy ...and
I've found five or six of them. The locations are:
Delafield Wisconsin (established 1884) Albert's button SU-377
Salina Kansas (established 1887)
Manlius NY (in existence 1869, establish-date not yet known)
Ossining NY (date not yet known)
Haddonfield NJ (in existence in 1881, establish-date not yet known)
Alexandria Virginia (established 1834)
Side-note: the 1834 Virginia SJMA would be much more likely to have a pewter insignia-button than an 1880s SJMA.

I realize that I'm placing a lot of emphasis on the fact that Diggerthedog's button (and presumably also Ben's) strongly appears to be made of pewter (note the crumbly grey patina). Pewter was rarely used for insignia-type buttons even by the time of the civil war ...and "super-rarely" after that. So I can't help but be greatly surprised by a 1880s-era military-school button being made of pewter. I'm not saying it's impossible, of course ...just that it's extraordinary weird if the button IS in fact the 1884 Wisconsin STMA's button.

I keep trying to make out the details of the button's face. Diggerthedog, I have three questions for you.
(1) Can you tell what things are shown on the shield?
(2) There is a slightly-arced "banner" going outward from each side of the eagle's body (across its wings). Can you discern any lettering on the banner?
(3) Could you post a photo of the button's back side. I'm curious about what kind of loop or shank it had.

And Ben, one question for you:
Did the "older version" of the SJMA emblem have the "banner" I mentioned in question #2 to Diggerthedog?

"Curioser and curioser..."
TheCannonballGuy

 

[nhbenz]

Hi Cannon, Yes the earlier (but not necessarily original) version had the banner as well. I must say I've spent a bit of time trying to read the Latin writing on the banner. The closest I can figure is "Libertad Torden". I've googled every variation of other possibilities with no results. Whatever it says was what led me to find out what it was... I'd found a site that explained the history of the pattern and why/when it changed. My button is brass (I think), doesn't have the flaking that you pointed out. It measures 3/4". I tried to get a good photo of it earlier, and I'll try again now.

 

[nhbenz]

OK, heres the best I could do. I actually had to take it through a magnifying glass, which cast a shadow along the top... but the shield is fairly clear.

 

[nhbenz]

OK, I think I figured out the writing on the banner. Libertad Y' Orden. Translates: "Liberty and Order"... I'm still searching for that site where I'd previously found the whole history.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

First... Ben, thank you very much for your work in trying to solve this mystery. : )

And solving it is ALL I'm trying to do here. : )

The motto on the banner didn't sound like Latin to me. (I took 2 years of Latin classes in high school.) "Libertas" is latin for liberty ...and "Libertad" is spanish for liberty.

So I just now did a web-search for the banner's motto, "Libertad y Orden" - I was trying to find the website you mentioned. What I just now found was...
"Uhhh-oh!" The emblem on your (brass) button is the coat-of-arms of the nation of Ecuador. It was adopted in 1834!
See the info for yourself at:
http://pages.infinit.net/colombia/escudo/col-esc.htm

Here's an image of the Ecuador national seal. It's an exact match, including the two flags alongside both edges of the shield.

The mystery gets deeper. At the moment, it sure looks like neither Diggerthedog's button nor yours is an (american) St. John's Military Academy button.

Regards,
TheCannonballGuy

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Ooops - I meant to say the coat-of-arms of Panama, not Ecuador. I don't know why I typed Ecuador. Maybe I was thinking of "Escudo." Sorry about that.

Regards,
TheCannonballGuy

 

[nhbenz]

Well done... I agree thats it. Nice to have another great researcher here. I swear I'd previously found a site which showed this as a St Johns variation... perhaps it disappeared having been proven wrong... ugh. Anyway, thanks for the info., I never mind being proven wrong. Stick around here on TreasureNet. Thanks. -Ben

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Thank you, Ben.

You wrote:
"I never mind being proven wrong."

Thanks for that too. In my opinion, the person who proves I was incorrect has in actuality helped me, not hurt me.

For what it's worth... I can understand how the vanished website made its error. The Panama coat-of-arms is more than a little bit similar to the Wisconsin SJMA's emblem - which can be viewed on the SJMA website at http://www.sjnma.org/Parents/Excalibur.aspx and in the Albert-book photo of an 1884 SJMA button (#SU-377). However, the SJMA shield's contents are totally different, AND the shield itself is divided into 4 equal quarters (instead of horizontal bands) ...and Panama's emblem has flagpoles "flanking" the shield's edges.

The fact that Panama's emblem dates to 1834 fits nicely (time-wise) with Diggerthedog's button being pewter. A potential 1880s-era pewter American insignia-button was quite perplexing. That headache is now relieved by the emergence of the "1834" answer. : )

I do intend to stick around, participating in this discussion-forum. I learn stuff here too. Thanks again for the welcome.

Regards,
TheCannonballGuy

 

[nhbenz]

Cannonballguy, I just realized I'd mixed up my buttons! I'll dig out the one that really is from SJMA. THAT was the one that I had ID'd by the Latin on it. (it has a banner with motto that translates "work hard, play hard, pray hard") I just found a thread from a year ago on the same subject where I hope my ID for Stoney56 was more accurate. I'm laughing at myself right now... what a goof. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,5410.msg41781.html#msg41781

 

[finderzzs]

It's actually the seal of Columbia. Not Panama or Ecuador. These buttons are still being used with the same pattern.

Ooops - I meant to say the coat-of-arms of Panama, not Ecuador. I don't know why I typed Ecuador. Maybe I was thinking of "Escudo." Sorry about that.

Regards,
TheCannonballGuy