Button info

[cudamark]

I don't normally find old buttons here in my area, but I was searching a 100 year old site and came up with these two. The one on the left doesn't have a backing or any markings on it to help I.D. The other button has the eagle on the front and City Button Works New York on the back. Since I'm totally ignorant of anything button, I would appreciate any info you may have on these. Thanks.

 

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[duggap]

Your button without a back is likely a fashion button. The other is a US Army button called the great seal. It is still used today. Hang in there and someone will likely tell you a better date range with that backmark info.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Your "Great Seal" US Army button has three characteristics which enable us to establish a date-range for it.
1- Its manufacturer, "City Button Works" made US Army buttons from 1907 through World War Two or somewhat later.
2- It has a raised rim, which means it was made after 1910.
3- It does not have "black finish" on its brass front, so it was made after 1923.

Because in the 1920s through 1930s the US Army was small-ish, and thus didn't need vast numbers of buttons, then grew enormously at the outbreak of World War 2, requiring tens-of-millions of buttons, the statistical odds favor your button having been made by City Button Works during World War Two rather than in the 1920s/30s.

 

[fyrffytr1]

TCG is the man when it comes to Great Seal buttons and everything he said is correct with one small exception. Their is a slight chance that your button could have been made between 1910 and 1917. But, I agree with TCG that is more than likely WWII era.
And, if you read this TCG, maybe you can answer a question for me. Did the button makers like "City Button Works" change their backmarks in any way during their production period? This is in regards to the Great Seal ones.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

According to the Great Seal button backmarks list compiled by BigCypressHunter and posted here:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/112828-great-seal-button-backmarks-help-4.html
the answer to your question is yes... SOME Great Seal button backmarks have variations in a company's name. An example of that is the various D. Evans backmarks.

By the way... BCH lists City Button Works only as World War One. But the McGuinn-&-Bazelon book on backmarks says City Button Works was making both Military and Civilian buttons in 1907 but devoted its entire manufacturing capabilty to making only Military buttons during WW1 and WW2.

About the time-period of the "black finish" Great Seal buttons:
A recent poster in BCH's thread on Great Seal backmarks, Rockermike17368, says he is about to publish an extensive book on Great Seal buttons. He says "I divide the 1902 (rimless & plain field) by gilt and blackened /bronze,".
That indicates "black finish" Great Seal buttons existed before 1917. See post #316 in BCH's discussion thread. Perhaps Rockermike17368 can tell us whether Cudamark's bronze-finish "rimmed" Great Seal button is is strictly 1923-&-later, or could also have been made between 1910 and WW1.

 

[cudamark]

Thanks for the info guys. I'd like to see if I can narrow down the date of manufacture as close as I can. I noticed that in BigCypressHunter's thread, he early on changed the City Button Works-New York end date from 1955 back to 1923. I'd like to know for sure the range and if there is a way to tell early from late. My button doesn't seem to have any black paint or gilding left so no help there. It's all non-ferrous. It measures about 7/8" (I know, I'm metrically challenged! What is that....22-3 mm or so?). Mine is the -New York version, not the NY type. Does that help date it or did they just shorten up the name for the smaller buttons? Did just the Army use the Great Seal buttons?

 

[fyrffytr1]

According to the Great Seal button backmarks list compiled by BigCypressHunter and posted here:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/112828-great-seal-button-backmarks-help-4.html
the answer to your question is yes... SOME Great Seal button backmarks have variations in a company's name. An example of that is the various D. Evans backmarks.

By the way... BCH lists City Button Works only as World War One. But the McGuinn-&-Bazelon book on backmarks says City Button Works was making both Military and Civilian buttons in 1907 but devoted its entire manufacturing capabilty to making only Military buttons during WW1 and WW2.

About the time-period of the "black finish" Great Seal buttons:
A recent poster in BCH's thread on Great Seal backmarks, Rockermike17368, says he is about to publish an extensive book on Great Seal buttons. He says "I divide the 1902 (rimless & plain field) by gilt and blackened /bronze,".
That indicates "black finish" Great Seal buttons existed before 1917. See post #316 in BCH's discussion thread. Perhaps Rockermike17368 can tell us whether Cudamark's bronze-finish "rimmed" Great Seal button is is strictly 1923-&-later, or could also have been made between 1910 and WW1.

TCG,
I agree that black finish buttons did exist before WWI. According to McGuinn and Bazelon buttons made between 1910 and 1917 were either gilt or black. I haven't seen Rockermike's research so all I have to go on is McGuinn and Bazelon. I look forward to seeing Rockermike's book as I can use all the help I can get in identifying buttons and other relics.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Cudamark asked:
> Does that help date it or did they just shorten up the name for the smaller buttons?

We know with certainty that long before 1902, backmarks were shortened (often with abbreviations) for use on smaller-size buttons. So I'm sure it was also done in the 20th-Century.

> Did just the Army use the Great Seal buttons?

Yes. The US Navy, the US Marines, the US Coast Guard, etc., all had/have their own distinctive emblem for buttons. I should mention that the US Air Force (which has its own button-emblem) did not exist until 1947. Pror to that date, it was a subset of the US Army, called the Army Air Corps. So, when you see a World War 2 movie, if the movie is accurate, it will show airplane fighter and bomber crews wearing Great Seal buttons.

I should also mention, during the first half of the 1800s, some US Diplomatic Corps personnel wore an "early" version of Great Seal button.