✅ SOLVED Button Help Please.

[fyrffytr1]

I am posting this for a friend. It is a 1 piece button with the backmark of "Firmin & Sons 153 Strand London" I cannot figure out the obverse. Why would a porcupine be chasing an alligator or crocodile with a banner over its head. Any and all help is greatly appreciated.

 

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[Gene Mean]

That's different. Maybe something like a rivalry championship button. The Chattanooga Porcupines beat the Memphis Gators. Strange things come to me.

 

[fyrffytr1]

I have a gut feeling it may be politically related but it might just be the hot sauce I had with my supper!

 

[Mud Hut]

It has all the characteristics of an old livery button.

 

[fyrffytr1]

It has all the characteristics of an old livery button.

Yes I agree, but what does the porcupine and alligator/crocodile with a banner over it signify?

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Mud Hut is on the right track. I'll speak up to confirm, it is definitely a Livery button. In this case, it represents two houses of British Nobility. It's very unusual for a Livery button to show two family Crests... so my guess is, this button commemorates the unification of the houses of two Nobles, through a marriage.

The key ID-clue for this button is the presence of a Heraldry device known as a Torse, located underneath the Family Crest. A Torse is a wreath, but viewed "on edge" (as if it was laying flat on the ground below the Crest), instead of the usual standing-up view of a wreath. A Torse always has 6 furls. It is clearly visible on the two Livery buttons in the images below. (Click on the image to enlarge it for a better view of the Torse and its 6 "furls."

Here's a link to a wonderful website showing the specific Nobility-family identification of hundreds of Livery buttons. Fyrffytr1, you can research the details of the two crests on your button to identify them.

After-posting edit:
Since you are a Friend, and also a member of the Uniformed Public Services (Military, Police, Firefighters), I researched the emblems for you. The porcupine is here:
Porcupine - Livery Buttons Identified (google.com) Family is Fyler or Prestwich and Prestwick.
There is no entry at Silversimon's Livery-Buttons site for an alligator or a crocodile. So, I suggest you try to decipher the motto in the ribbon above the gator/croc's head, and search for the motto's Livery connection.


Livery Buttons Identified (google.com)

 

[fyrffytr1]

I thank you and the person who found this thanks you. I went to the livery button site and found the porcupine but I couldn't find the alligator/crocodile.

 

[Red-Coat]

I concur with ‘TheCannonballGuy’ but have some additional comments.

Livery buttons don’t just relate to ‘nobility’. They were also used by ‘important’ families, including those with pretensions to nobility and by companies, including service companies. There are lots of reasons why a livery button might have two armorial devices or charges, including intermarriage between families.

In addition, companies such as Firmin also produced ‘fantasy’ livery buttons with emblems having no particular connection to anyone. These were used by anyone with an even higher degree of pretentiousness, keen to create the impression of importance. Those two animals would however be an unusual choice for a fantasy button. More usually they had common generic heraldic devices (lions, birds, dogs, stags and such).

Nevertheless, several families used a hedgehog, but I think that’s pretty clearly a porcupine, which would point towards the Fyler or Prestwich (and Prestwick) family as CBG suggests. Whether the other device is alligator or crocodile isn’t clear but I would be pretty sure it’s a crocodile and that was the heraldic charge used on the armorial of the Rossiter family of Ireland (but that may not be the only usage). Some genealogy research might establish whether there was intermarriage between the Rossiter family and the Fyler or Prestwich/Prestwick families. If there was, then it’s likely to have been some time in the 1800s, but before 1875.

The reason I give that dating is from the button backmark. Firmin & Sons didn’t operate under that name from 153 Strand until 1822 and moved from the Strand address in 1894. However, they became a limited company in 1875 and button backmarks after that date were generally “Firmin & Sons Ld” or “Firmin & Sons Ltd”.

 

[devldog]

FF1, that is a cool looking button. Very nice save. It looks as if you are about to nail the I'D on this piece. Well Done.

 

[BLK HOLE]

Little know fact, porcupines are the natural predator of alligators.

 

[erfranks]

Cool Button!!!

 

[Bramblefind]

I think this may be from the Speke family. Does it read "NILE" on the banner above the crocodile? There is information about it here - the crocodile and Nile were added after John Hanning Speke was the first European to reach Lake Victoria.

https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/CoA-228-Goldsmith-paper.pdf

See the top of this illustration of the arms---

 

[fyrffytr1]

Bramblefind,
That illustration was among a few others posted on another website. I think this buttons identification has been solved. Here's a link to the other site because I can't figure out how to post the results here.
https://www.findmall.com/threads/button-help-please.355376/#post-2311538