button from Waterbury Button Co.

[funkman]

I was able to detect the otherside of the street today and besides finding 5 pennies and a nickel (all clad) I came across this button that has on the back "Waterbury Button Co." Just searching a little the company was making buttons since the Revolutionary War, except I think they were called a different name. The back did not come out the best in the photo, not saying the front did either though. Can someone help me identify what kind of button this is? I do not want to wash it or rinse it with water uinless you guys think it will be okay. Could I see if there was a design on it? looks like it has a nice patina going so however that makes it able to be aged or not.

Thanks guys........okay Diving Doc....time to earn another cookie!!!

Funkman

 

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[funkman]

forgot to mention...the button is 5/8 inch diameter. Just in case that helps identify it.

Funkman

 

[jeff of pa]

Sounds like a Cuff Button by size to me.

 

[BjC]

Possibly this one? http://www.waterburybutton.com/user...g=Career Uniform&subcatg=Plain&page=1&id=3151

 

[PBK]

Can someone help me identify what kind of button this is?

The backmark appears to be an rmdc ("raised mark, depressed channel") type which was used by the Waterbury Button Company in the 1850's and early 60's.

Since there is no evidence of any design, it seems very likely that it's a civilian plain-face clothing button— similar in appearance to the one in the link that BjC posted— and Waterbury certainly made many of them in that period.

Good references include Warren K. Tice's Dating Buttons; A Chronology of Button Types, Makers, Retailers & Their Backmarks and McGuinn & Bazelon's American Military Button Makers and Dealers; Their Backmarks & Dates.

 

[funkman]

Thanks for the id PBK. One question though...the button I have the letters that make up 'WATERBURY BUTTON CO.' are actually indented into the metal not raised. Is this the same that was meant by RMDC? If not could you take another look in that book of yours and give me another date range that it could ahve been produced?

Thanks for the help.

Funkman

 

[PBK]

It can't date much earlier, because the firm did not exist under that name until 1849. Prior to that, it was part of the Benedict & Burnham Mfg. Co.

If there is no channel, and the exact lettering is "WATERBURY BUTTON CO." (perhaps with one or more [size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt]*[/size][/size][/size]'s, and bordered by dotted lines), then the button dates c. 1860's-90's.

 

[funkman]

PBK,

The letters are recessed, not raised like you show in your picture. There is no recessed channel either. the words are stamped into the metal flush on the back. There is a channel but that is where the stud/ring that the thread goes through to attach it to the clothing.

Do you have that book that you were referring to or is there a link to it on the web that I could do research?

Thanks,

Funkman

 

[PBK]

Sorry I can't be of more help on this one. As I said...

If there is no channel, and the exact lettering is "WATERBURY BUTTON CO." (perhaps with one or more [size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt]*[/size][/size][/size]'s, and bordered by dotted lines), then the button dates c. 1860's-90's.

I'll pull the pic. No sense adding to the confusion, right?

I'm sure one or two of the real button experts on the forum will soon post the info you're after.

All the best,
PBK

 

[funkman]

Just a little update on this button. I took out the Ace this morning just to swipe the button under the coil and it registered only once on the 5 or more times I swiped. I had the Ace in coin mode at the time i found the button and also for this test. Now when I say it did not register I am actually wrong. What I mean is that it did not beep. The button did register but under pull tab symbol, which coin mode discriminates against. I was lucky to have had it actually beep the one time that I was passing over it in the ground or else I would not have found it at all. I probably should go through the same area again but leave it in all metal mode just to see what is around. Maybe just discriminate against all iron.
Also I found a website that is for someone who collects buttons and she had a pic of almost the exact button I have. I emailed her and copied the link to this post so she can get a view of my button and possibly help identify what year it is from. PBK... I tried looking for that book in my library search and didn't find it. Amazon does not even have anymore to sell. Would rather just borrow the book from the library anyway since it is only my first button and who knows if there will be more.
I also will start detecting going in different directions to see if I find more things. I usually detect in the one direction and have never detected on the way back or perpendicular to the direction I detected already. In other words I would just detect from north to south and did not go back south to north or make smaller passes going east to west and west to east. Going to have to try that out and possibly find more coinage

Anyway if I come across anymore info on this button I will post it.

Thanks for reading

Funkman

 

[PBK]

PBK... I tried looking for that book in my library search and didn't find it. Amazon does not even have anymore to sell.

Tice's Dating Buttons is available for $55 from:
http://www.southern-treasures.com/Books.htm

McGuinn & Bazelon's American Military Button Makers & Dealers is available for $20 from:
http://research-unlimited.com/identification.html

(They also have Tice's book for $60.)

 

[funkman]

Thanks PBK....you really are a bundle of information for all of us that need help on this forum and we appreciate it.

Funkman

 

[Aguila]

that is a nice button, I bet you find a few more things at that site if you use a cross grid pattern.

 

[funkman]

Aguila,

Yeah I definately will do that and also put the detector on all metal mode for poops and chuckles just to see what i dig up, but will discriminate against iron cause I don't want to be digging up a hundred nails and stuff.

Funkman

 

[PBK]

Thanks for the id PBK. One question though...the button I have the letters that make up 'WATERBURY BUTTON CO.' are actually indented into the metal not raised. Is this the same that was meant by RMDC?

Funkman—

As you know, since you indicated that you believe your button is not, in fact, an rmdc backmarked type, I deleted my earlier post explaining the term in detail, along with a photo of an rmdc type button. It would appear that the removal of that information has opened the door to some confusion about my use of the term "rmdc."

Again, "rmdc" means "raised mark, depressed channel"— a type of backmark in which the lettering is raised rather than incuse (i.e., below the level of the surrounding metal), but is struck in a channel or band which is depressed (i.e., lower than the rest of the back of the button). The term is usually written in lower case, but is also capitalized by some button authorities, as in the first of the following two quotes:

" An RMDC is a backmark which consists of raised lettering set in a depressed channel. " — http://vintagebuttons.net/shanks.html

"This button mark is what is called a rmdc (raised mark in a depressed channel) type. This style of marking was rarely used after the Civil War and can generally be accepted as an indication that the button is Civil War period or earlier." —
http://howardlanham.tripod.com/link80.htm

Unless the initials "RMDC" actually appear on either the front or back of the button that you found— which certainly does not appear to be the case— I think that you may safely disregard any other significance attributed to them, at least insofar as this particular find is concerned.

Shown below is an example of an rmdc backmark. Although not a Waterbury Button Co. mark, it illustrates the type well.

All the best,
PBK

 

[funkman]

Thanks again PBK. I was able to find a site that had a button that actually looked like the back of mine. In the photo attached it is the one on the top left (actually is a Waterbury button). This is the text for this style of button:

One way to get a handle on the age of a uniform button is to notice how the shank is attached. These examples show how the shank is brased at the base which is an older construction method compared to the inserted shank types where you cannot see any brasing compound. Those who collect and study Civil War period uniform buttons also look to see if there is "mushrooming" around the base of the shank. The button above on the left shows mushrooming where the shank meets the back of the button. The one on the right sits lower. Although lack of mushrooming is not "proof" that your button is Civil War period, this factor along with understanding of certain backmarks, face designs and other construction methods can help determine the age of a uniform button. I've been told that a very small, very round shank "eye" could be a good sign of a Civil War period button as well.

this information was found at this website:
http://www.vintagebuttons.net/shanks.html

So according to that it seems my button is from the period during or after the civil war. I was able to get some information on the property that it was found on. There is a huge house / mnasion on it that in 1887 was called Locksley Hall and owned by a Horace Corey. He owned 15 acres of land that the house resides by. The house was renovated after a fire in 1889 and was renamed in 1902 The Thistle's by another owner (Horace died during renovation). Now it is owned by the Carmelite Order and serves asa retreat for their priests. I was given permission to search the lands and you know darn well thats what I'm doing!! Also found with this button (same area not same hole) was some nice looking shards of pottery that has flower/vine design on it

Funkman

 

[PBK]

Thanks again PBK. I was able to find a site that had a button that actually looked like the back of mine.
http://www.vintagebuttons.net/shanks.html
So according to that it seems my button is from the period during or after the civil war.
Funkman

Right. In fact, as I'm sure you noticed, I referenced the same website (vintagebuttons.net) in my post above. Also, on the date range, note my Reply #6:

If there is no channel, and the exact lettering is "WATERBURY BUTTON CO." (perhaps with one or more [size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt]*[/size][/size][/size]'s, and bordered by dotted lines), then the button dates c. 1860's-90's.

I'd say that matches up pretty well with your new info, too, wouldn't you?

Neat find, postwar or otherwise!

PBK