✅ SOLVED Bullets I am trying to date.

[RickeyB]

I am searching some of my own property for proof that NB Forrest's Calvary skirmished here July of 64. Have found a minnie and some exploded iron, which does fit the narrative I have read. I have dug all this other lead that seems to span the last two hundred years. What unusual is its all about the same debt 6 inches. I was hoping some of you experts might recognize some of this lead and put a date to it. Thanks!

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[kuger]

I can tell ya unless ya mean 1964...the first 5 arent period...imho,but as the true experts will tell ya,precise measurements and close ups will be needed

 

[BosnMate]

Agree with kuger, but will add that the round balls might be from exploded artillery shells.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

I agree with Kuger and BosnMate, the five bullets on the left in the photo are indeed 20th-Century bullets.

The bullet on the right does closely resemble a civil war yankee 3-groove Minie-ball. But because so many Reproductions of them have been used by modernday Blackpowder game-hunters and target-shooters, we'll need very-precise measurements, and also well-focused closeup photos. Especially, we need to see the exact shape of the cavity in its base. (That is a crucial way to tell the Reproductions from the civil war era Originals.)

One of the reasons I'm asking for the above is that yours doesn't seem to have much lead patina (oxidation) on it. Did you clean the oxide off it? Or did it come out of the ground looking just like it does in the photo?

By the way, I can tell from extra-enlarging the photo that your Minie-ball is a fired one. Te rifling-marks on it look a bit "odd" compared to the civil war fired ones I've studied closely. That's another reason I'm asking for well-focused closeup photos.

BosnMate is right... the two larger lead balls look like they may be antipersonnel balls from exploded artillery shells.

You said you've found some "exploded iron" fragments. Please post photos of those also. I'd like to see if they are indeed civil war artillery shell fragments ...and if so, I might be able to give you a specific ID for them (such as, 12-pounder Bormann roundshell, 3"-caliber Hotchkiss shell, etc). Please show a ruler or tape-measure right next to the iron fragments in any photos.

 

[kuger]

"Kuger is right... the two larger lead balls look like they may be antipersonnel balls from exploded artillery shells."

Bosn is right

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Thanks for the heads-up that it was said by BosnMate instead of you, Kuger. I've now corrected the error. (I should have gone to bed instead of writing a post at 3:46 AM.)

 

[RickeyB]

Thanks for everyone's feedback! Attached is the exploded iron I have found.
I will give background in effort to answer questions. I am actually finding all this in my own back yard. I live on a bluff overlooking the old Pontotoc,MS to Tupelo,MS road that AJ Smith marched 15,000 plus union troops on his mission to destroy Nathan Bedford Forrest which ended in the Battle of Tupelo (Harrisburg). From what I read Forrest made several attempts to get the North to turn and fight, but they only returned fire on occasion until they arrived in Tupelo. Apparently they were forced to return fire with cannons and small arms while they were attempting to ford a creek at the bottom of my bluff. The Minnie in my earlier photo was definitely thick with the normal white patina. When I found it, I assumed it was a drop because of its good condition. But later when I looked it up and decided it was of Northern manufacture it did not make sense to be a drop on this bluff when Forrest men were firing at the North from this position. So I got the wire brush out and found what I determined was a fired and spent bullet. It was so far in the ground (10" to 12" )that if it was a more recent (repo) bullet wound't it have been disfigured going that deep?
I know the other bullets are not part of this narrative. I was hoping someone could tell by looking at the picture what guns and time periods they are. Also this bluff was a Chickasaw Indian village before 1832. I have found a lot of the round musket balls over the years that I figured was shot from trade gun muskets the Indians used. One of these does seem larger that the normal ones I find. Thanks Again for the help everyone!

 

[RickeyB]

Closeups of the Minnie for TheCannonballGuy

 

[RickeyB]

forgot you asked for this also.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Thank you for explaining the lack of patina. Wirebrushing the soft pure-lead Mine-ball also explains why the rifling-marks looked "unusual." (We longtime relic-diggers urge NOT cleaning the oxidation/patina off of any dug metal except iron -- because you make the relic look like a reproduction.)

The good news is that it's not a repro, you've got a fired yankee .59-caliber 3-groove Minie-ball. I recognize the ramrod-mark as the form made by an Enfield rifle's ramrod. (Civil war Ordnance documents show that yankee troops in Mississippi had a lot of Enfield rifles in addition to their typical Springfiled rifles.

I asked for a well-focused closeup photo of your Minie-ball's base because the Repro ones usually (but not always) have a thin "skirt" at the base and a very deep cavity whose shape is similar to the bullet's curving nose. The base-view photo shows yours is not one of those.

Sorry to say, I do not recognize any of your iron fragments as being civil war artillery shell fragments. Most of the "Field Artillery caliber" civil war shells were from .45" to .7" thick, and only one of your iron fragments looks like it might be that thick. Also, the great majority of civil war shell fragments were bigger than 1-inch across.

You asked about whether a Reproduction version of Minie-ball would be more damaged than your Orginal one in penetrating 10 inches of dirt. That depends entirely on the kind of dirt (rocky, silty, or sandy), the degree of soil moisture, and the range. It also depends on the purity of the lead in the bullet. Lead that contains 6% tin or antimony is called "hardened lead," and as the name implies, it is much harder than pure-lead, and thus suffers a lot less deformation upon impact.

I collect what I call "interesting" fired civil war bullets. Yours is what I refer to as a "long-distance fired" one. Those are bullets which got aimed too high, and traveled an extremely long distance without hitting anything until they "ran out of gas" and fell comparatively gently to earth with basicly just a "plop." I like that kind because interesting things like the rifling-marks and ramrod-mark are not smashed beyond recognition.

 

[RickeyB]

Thank you so much for all this good history. I am thankful someone knows all this. I do have a larger piece of exploded iron. I could not put my hands on it for this pic. All these three pieces were deep in the ground on a forest floor. What could have fragmented iron like that so many years ago if not for a military like explosion? Do you know how many yards away this minnie would have to have been fired for it to have spent itself so fully.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Unfortunately there is no way for us to know for certain "how many yards away this minnie would have to have been fired for it to have spent itself so fully." A civil war .58-caliber rifle's maximum range was almost a mile. But, if a soldier got hit a second or two before firing, and jerked wildly in pain, the rifle may have been pointing skyward when he pulled its trigger. So, depending on the angle the rifle was at, the bullet may have traveled nearly straight up, landing just a comparatively short distance from the shooter.

But of course, the more-often case is that the shooter was (unintentionally) aiming too high. Although the rifle's maximum range was nearly a mile, its maximum effective range was considered to be about 500 yards. And in fact, most civil war rifle combat was at much closer range than that, due to eyesight limitations.

We know that a lot of civil war combat was fought on forested or "brushy" lands. If a rifle is aimed a bit too high, the Minie-ball overshoots the target and comes down through a bunch of tree-leaves or brush --which slows it down a lot without causing the bullet to be "significantly" deformed like it would if it hit a solid object. For example, traveling through a bunch of blackberry or laurel bushes slows the bullet down a lot but doesn't damage it. It runs out of gas because of the leaves and thin stems, then plops to earth with little or no damage.

Apparently, such scenarios happened more often than we'd think, because in every can of 100 fired Minie-balls I buy from diggers here in Virginia, I find several that show little or no impact-damage.

Please pardon the long-windedness of that explanation. My point is, if the bluff you live on was forested or brushy during the civil war, your fired Minie probably was fired from less than 500 yards away, and got slowed down enough by vegetation to run out of gas and fall to earth without significant impact-damage.

 

[RickeyB]

Wow! Your knowledge is amazing. Thanks so much for the long-windness. I hung on every word. I am thinking Confederate General Abraham Buford, commanding the Second Division of Forrest's Calvary was engaged with the 33rd and 14th Wisconsin in my general area. From what you know the Wisconsin must have had the Enfields. Funny thing is we have found CSA and US buckles plates both on this ridge over the years. I always thought the US stuff was most likely someone else souvenir lost years later. We had so many small battles around here anything could have happened over the years. Thanks Again for your knowledge and time. My neighbor is a 1800's gun expert and collector. I plan on seeing if he can locate me an Enfield to match my bullet. Lol

 

[RickeyB]

Found my best piece of exploded iron. Can you ID this one better? Thanks!

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Yes, I can ID that civil war artillery shell fragment with some specificity. It is from a 12-pounder (4.62") caliber Case-Shot explosive antipersonnel cannonball. "Case-Shot" means it contained antipersonnel balls/slugs along the explosie gunpowder burting-charge. If you found it where the Confederates were at, it is yankee-made, and had a zinc Bormann timefuze.

I know it is from a 12-pounder caliber Case-Shot roundshell by comparing its size and thickness with the ruler in the photo. The civil war era US (and CSA) Ordnance Manual specified that the shellwall thickness of a 12-pounder roundshell should be approximately .45-inch thick. That matches what is shown in your photo.

There ought to be some "duds" downrange from where you found that shell-frag. To find them, follow the Trajectory line from the yankee cannon's location 100 to 500 yards onward past the location where you dug that fragment. Don't worry about digging one. A civil war artillery shell definitely will NOT explode from being dropped... or even from being hit several times with a digger's shovel. (They are not shock-sensitive like 20th-Century artillery shells -- please see the "About me" section in my Profile here at Treasurenet.)

 

[RickeyB]

Thanks! I can't wait to do more digging for these. I know you ruled out my other three iron fragments in the earlier post. With this piece in the area could they be related?