thrillathahunt
Silver Member
I found this bullet at CTH3 last weekend. It measures 11.5mm wide and 26mm long with a rather deep hole at the base. Looks like it was dropped and not fired. Can anyone give me any info on this bullet?
Bullet ID help please SOLVED
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Gypsy Heart
Gold Member
Re: Bullet ID help please
Not sure..but since I have been trying to identify all my bullets from Kansas...it looks like a Savage
Not sure..but since I have been trying to identify all my bullets from Kansas...it looks like a Savage
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Monty
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Re: Bullet ID help please
There's nothing in CWPII that even remotely resembles it. It's distinguishing marks is the extremely wide grease grooves. Dang I just don't know. Gypsy, I don't think Savage ever made any bullets. Savage made guns to shoot various bullets however, and still does. This bullet is a common diameter but the configuration is strange at least to me. Monty
There's nothing in CWPII that even remotely resembles it. It's distinguishing marks is the extremely wide grease grooves. Dang I just don't know. Gypsy, I don't think Savage ever made any bullets. Savage made guns to shoot various bullets however, and still does. This bullet is a common diameter but the configuration is strange at least to me. Monty
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Gypsy Heart
Gold Member
Re: Bullet ID help please
Ok...here are a couple from this site
http://www.bullrunrelics.com/bullets.html
Ok...here are a couple from this site
http://www.bullrunrelics.com/bullets.html
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Monty
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Re: Bullet ID help please
I will concede that some savage bullets are listed but they don't match the one in question. It's kind of hard to explain, but I'll try. When the book says something like, .54 cal Sharps, that refers to the weapon that fired the bullet, not necessarily the manufacturer of the bullet. I doubt we will ever know the manufacturer of many of the old bullets as they were made by a varety of companies and many were cast at home. But when we talk about modern bullets it is fairly easy to id the manufacturer. For instance I found a 180 grain, 30 caliber Hornady softpoint bullet in the CTH3. So the bullet would be identified as a 180 grain Hornady softpoint. It could have been shot in a Remington rifle, but it would not be called a 180 grain Remington. But you can't make that destinction with the older lead bullets. Hope that explains what I was getting at. Monty
I will concede that some savage bullets are listed but they don't match the one in question. It's kind of hard to explain, but I'll try. When the book says something like, .54 cal Sharps, that refers to the weapon that fired the bullet, not necessarily the manufacturer of the bullet. I doubt we will ever know the manufacturer of many of the old bullets as they were made by a varety of companies and many were cast at home. But when we talk about modern bullets it is fairly easy to id the manufacturer. For instance I found a 180 grain, 30 caliber Hornady softpoint bullet in the CTH3. So the bullet would be identified as a 180 grain Hornady softpoint. It could have been shot in a Remington rifle, but it would not be called a 180 grain Remington. But you can't make that destinction with the older lead bullets. Hope that explains what I was getting at. Monty
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Gypsy Heart
Gold Member
Re: Bullet ID help please
Thats it Monty...LOL...No wonder I cant identify my bullets....expect a package in the mail....and you can identify all mine.....LOL
Thats it Monty...LOL...No wonder I cant identify my bullets....expect a package in the mail....and you can identify all mine.....LOL
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Monty
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Re: Bullet ID help please
I don't think it is a .45-70 as I shoot and reload for that caliber. I researched all kinds of bullets for it over the years and never saw one even remotely similar to that one. It doesn't have a crimping groove and the .45-70 has to be tightly crimped. The 3 huge grease grooves would make me think it is for a muzzle loader rather than a cased cartridge. Monty
I don't think it is a .45-70 as I shoot and reload for that caliber. I researched all kinds of bullets for it over the years and never saw one even remotely similar to that one. It doesn't have a crimping groove and the .45-70 has to be tightly crimped. The 3 huge grease grooves would make me think it is for a muzzle loader rather than a cased cartridge. Monty
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diggerfororo
Hero Member
Re: Bullet ID help please
I might be wrong (I was once) but smokeless powder wasn't used until about 1932, so all before that time WERE black powder. My bullet book only lists Civil War era bullets and there is nothing in it that looks similar.
Les
Spooky said:
I might be wrong (I was once) but smokeless powder wasn't used until about 1932, so all before that time WERE black powder. My bullet book only lists Civil War era bullets and there is nothing in it that looks similar.
Les
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thrillathahunt
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Re: Bullet ID help please
Pardon my ignorance, but didn't all bullets fired from a casing or cartride have crimping marks?
Pardon my ignorance, but didn't all bullets fired from a casing or cartride have crimping marks?
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TiredIron
Sr. Member
Re: Bullet ID help please
Smokeless powder has been in use since the 1890's.
Military commanders had been complaining since the Napoleonic Wars about the problems of giving orders on a battlefield that was swathed in thick smoke from the gunpowder used by the guns. In 1886 Paul Vieille invented a smokeless gunpowder called Poudre B. Made from gelatinized nitrocellulose mixed with ether and alcohol, it was passed through rollers to form thin sheets, which were cut with a guillotine to flakes of the desired size. Vielle's powder was used in the Lemel rifle that was adopted by the French Army in the late 1880s.
The French Army was the first to use Poudre B but it was not long before other European countries followed their example. Vieille's powder revolutionized the effectiveness of small guns and rifles. Firstly because practically no smoke was formed when the gun was fired and secondly because it was much more powerful than gun powder, giving an accurate rifle range of up to 1000 yards.
In 1887 Alfred Nobel also developed a smokeless gunpowder. This eventually became known as cordite, a powder easier to handle and more powerful than Poudre B.
Almost everything used in World War I was smokeless.......for sure in the U.S.
Smokeless powder has been in use since the 1890's.
Military commanders had been complaining since the Napoleonic Wars about the problems of giving orders on a battlefield that was swathed in thick smoke from the gunpowder used by the guns. In 1886 Paul Vieille invented a smokeless gunpowder called Poudre B. Made from gelatinized nitrocellulose mixed with ether and alcohol, it was passed through rollers to form thin sheets, which were cut with a guillotine to flakes of the desired size. Vielle's powder was used in the Lemel rifle that was adopted by the French Army in the late 1880s.
The French Army was the first to use Poudre B but it was not long before other European countries followed their example. Vieille's powder revolutionized the effectiveness of small guns and rifles. Firstly because practically no smoke was formed when the gun was fired and secondly because it was much more powerful than gun powder, giving an accurate rifle range of up to 1000 yards.
In 1887 Alfred Nobel also developed a smokeless gunpowder. This eventually became known as cordite, a powder easier to handle and more powerful than Poudre B.
Almost everything used in World War I was smokeless.......for sure in the U.S.
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Monty
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Re: Bullet ID help please
.I am willing to bet the bullet you pictured is not a hollow base may
The use of black powder vs smokeless doesn't have anything to do with the lack of a crimping groove on the bullet in question. The .45-70 has to be crimped for two reasons. The almost straight case will not hold a bullet tight and in a repeater the bullet will shift forward in recoil and allow the bullet and powder to spill out jamming the action. The first commercial smokeless powder cartridge in the USA was the .30-30 Winchester that came out in the year 1895 for the Model 1894 Winchester lever action. Monty
I exxed out the info on the wadcutter because I am working on Iding two different bullets and got them mixed up, but the info above is correct.
.I am willing to bet the bullet you pictured is not a hollow base may
The use of black powder vs smokeless doesn't have anything to do with the lack of a crimping groove on the bullet in question. The .45-70 has to be crimped for two reasons. The almost straight case will not hold a bullet tight and in a repeater the bullet will shift forward in recoil and allow the bullet and powder to spill out jamming the action. The first commercial smokeless powder cartridge in the USA was the .30-30 Winchester that came out in the year 1895 for the Model 1894 Winchester lever action. Monty
I exxed out the info on the wadcutter because I am working on Iding two different bullets and got them mixed up, but the info above is correct.
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thrillathahunt
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Re: Bullet ID help please
Spooky is right!
It is a Lee .45-70 405 grain hollow base 1873 Government mold single cavity bullet as made for the trap door Springfield carbine, like the one that was used at the Little Big Horn!
Spooky is right!
It is a Lee .45-70 405 grain hollow base 1873 Government mold single cavity bullet as made for the trap door Springfield carbine, like the one that was used at the Little Big Horn!
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Monty
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It looks similar, but if so it is not a drop unless someone was molding bullets on the spot or carrying loose bullets with them. You can't drop an encased bullet but I suppose the cartridge case could have totally dissolved, but not likely. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of the bullet being pried out of a case so I guess that part will remain mystery. Good ID Spook. Monty
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thrillathahunt
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Monty said:
Monty, your post prompts me to ask one more question. Is it possible for a bullet to be fired and still look like this? (It looks perfect, as made)
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Monty
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Anything is possible, but not likely. No rifling marks or indication of impacting anything. No marks where bullet was crimped. There are numerous possiblilites and I have named a few already. But, the bullet may not have been cleaned well enough to see any marks? Beats me. Monty
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