British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not dug

[BloodyBelle]

British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not dug

Don't know if it's real (sure feels real) which type, or how old. Oops. Okay, when placed on a silver dollar the outermost rays extend just beyond it. Very nice kind of a yellow-gold metal. No obvious marks. I tried to get the color. It's in between whatever comes out. More of a classic pinback than any other in this lot I'll be listing for help with. I spent hours looking for this precise item on the 'net but no bananas. . Thanks for looking.

The honorable Order of the Garter has an interesting history and motto (which is in French.)

Meanwhile, this is a link to the story as it was told to me and the story I like the best.

http://www.suite101.com/content/the-order-of-the-garter-a124194

 

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[Iron Patch]

Re: British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not du

Looks like a modern piece from the Cold Stream Guards. This was my quickest what's it ID so far. (5 second search - maybe 4 ) If reproductions of these are sold I think it's very likely that's what you have.

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_guards_regiment/coldstream_guards.htm

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not du

If reproductions of these are sold I think it's very likely that's what you have.

And there is.

http://www.collectors.demon.co.uk/military/guards-regiments.php

 

[BloodyBelle]

Re: British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not du

Looks like a modern piece from the Cold Stream Guards. This was my quickest what's it ID so far. (5 second search - maybe 4 ) If reproductions of these are sold I think it's very likely that's what you have.

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_guards_regiment/coldstream_guards.htm

This does not compare to the one I have. There are details in your pic that are not on my piece. (Hope I'm in the right post--the first of your two.

The admitted repro resembles it more--during posting I can't return to view the image.

I understand the repro problem. I went through it with the GH Stag cap badge. The reason I couldn't find a very good pic of one, I've concluded, is that people trying to pass off repros as bona fide don't want you to really see it. It was also why I didn't choose to put up the rear or a better picture; I didn't want it to be lifted. So those pics went to the museum, and this one I'll send to the society I guess.

And the Polish cap badge? There are definitely variations on practically identical pieces.

Meanwhile your are saying it's a military cap badge and not a fraternity item?

Aren't you up a little early?

Cheers!

 

[Woodland Detectors]

Re: British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not dug

Looks like a modern piece from the Cold Stream Guards. This was my quickest what's it ID so far. (5 second search - maybe 4 ) If reproductions of these are sold I think it's very likely that's what you have.

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_guards_regiment/coldstream_guards.htm

Impressive. Nice 4 second ID! LOL

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not du

Looks like a modern piece from the Cold Stream Guards. This was my quickest what's it ID so far. (5 second search - maybe 4 ) If reproductions of these are sold I think it's very likely that's what you have.

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_guards_regiment/coldstream_guards.htm

Impressive. Nice 4 second ID! LOL

I knew the design from buttons which is why it was quick. The picture was the first google hit.

 

[Lucas]

Re: British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not dug

Repros are crisp-ish on the front, mushy on the back. Originals are crisp on back, and often polished down on the front.

 

[BloodyBelle]

Re: British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not du

Looks like a modern piece from the Cold Stream Guards. This was my quickest what's it ID so far. (5 second search - maybe 4 ) If reproductions of these are sold I think it's very likely that's what you have.

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_guards_regiment/coldstream_guards.htm

Impressive. Nice 4 second ID! LOL

I knew the design from buttons which is why it was quick. The picture was the first google hit.

And that's why I need people like you (except for the spandex) so I don't have to spend 100 hours per item only to come up with nothing.

Again, the posted pic is not it--look at the striation in the cross and surrounding area. The repros seem to be of the same design but they are repros. This does not feel like a repro so this story isn't over.

What is that Guards relationship to the Garter if any?

Cheers!

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not du

Looks like a modern piece from the Cold Stream Guards. This was my quickest what's it ID so far. (5 second search - maybe 4 ) If reproductions of these are sold I think it's very likely that's what you have.

http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_guards_regiment/coldstream_guards.htm

Impressive. Nice 4 second ID! LOL

I knew the design from buttons which is why it was quick. The picture was the first google hit.

And that's why I need people like you (except for the spandex) so I don't have to spend 100 hours per item only to come up with nothing.



Again, the posted pic is not it--look at the striation in the cross and surrounding area. The repros seem to be of the same design but they are repros. This does not feel like a repro so this story isn't over.

What is that Guards relationship to the Garter if any?

Cheers!

Please direct all my kisses to Lucas.

 

[BloodyBelle]

Re: British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not dug

Repros are crisp-ish on the front, mushy on the back. Originals are crisp on back, and often polished down on the front.

I believe you, but I don't understand a word of it.

 

[Lucas]

Re: British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not dug

I think this is the story...

The badges are technically not repros, they are re-strikes, except (I think) they only had the fronts of the dies which are a bit worn, and the backs of the dies had to be made.

So restrikes aren't super crisp because of wear, and are mushy on the back because the die backs aren't as high quality as the originals. That's what I heard anyway.

Originals WWI–WWII were often polished so many times the front looses detail, but the back was done with the original high quality die, so it is pretty crisp.

And I think all the early loops were always copper?

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it until somebody corrects me.

Oh, and

Grenadier Guards = Grenade

Coldstream = Garter Star

Scots = Thistle Star

Irish & Welsh = national veggies.

 

[BloodyBelle]

Re: British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not dug

I think this is the story...

The badges are technically not repros, they are re-strikes, except (I think) they only had the fronts of the dies which are a bit worn, and the backs of the dies had to be made.

So restrikes aren't super crisp because of wear, and are mushy on the back because the die backs aren't as high quality as the originals. That's what I heard anyway.

Originals WWI–WWII were often polished so many times the front looses detail, but the back was done with the original high quality die, so it is pretty crisp.

And I think all the early loops were always copper?

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it until somebody corrects me.

Oh, and

Grenadier Guards = Grenade

Coldstream = Garter Star

Scots = Thistle Star

Irish & Welsh = national veggies.

Dear Lucas,

Sorry it took me so long to respond. Your response was one of those that I had to think about and digest which was something I wasn't up to for a few days there.

The business about softness: I understand that, now. Were you talking about my pic of the front of mine? If so, it, the actual item, doesn't seem relatively "soft" to me. I was taking a macro via hand held. This sort of thing should be done with a tripod. Just an FYI.

Very interesting about restrikes in well-used molds. I just want to confirm that whatever official agencies did that, like opposed to selling worn molds to repro makers? As yet another example of me not knowing what I'm talking about on pain meds or not. WAIT! What's a "restrike?" Do you mean later strikes?

The loops on my pins and badges appear to be copper. (I will be listing more but if "Spandex" keeps coming in and yelling repro every time I'm going to chuck the project. )

However, you said something about 'early' loops being copper. Are there later loops? And as I asked Brian in another topic, define early and late.

Brian, you here?

Is there a way to archive posts here, or do I need to print things out in order to organize various topics. e.g. pinback types and dating.

Thanks again!

 

[U.K. Brian]

Re: British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not dug

Here's the backs of a few genuine badges showing the different attachments used. The big one posted top right I've borrowed to show a restrike as all mine are detector finds.

There's the earlier slide bar type, the looped type that had a split pin pushed through and the pin type used for small badges.

The restrike or should we call it fake, has loops in this case but they copy anything of any date. As you can see the back is nice and sharp....the clue that its a fake is that the loops are crudely fixed to the body of the badge. In this case to little metal on the left and to much on the right. The real test is feeling the weight and the degree of sharpness/roughness to the edges of the badge.

Loops can be brass or copper. Restrikes could be genuine as Regiments kept the same designs for years and could run out of supplies. The design of the crown thats on many would change if the monarch did which aids dating and meant another production run but this type of restrike retained the qualtiy of the originals.
Original badges were cheap to produce and this meant they were prepared to scrap any imperfect examples.
The "lugs" or flat metal "slider" of the older badges should be checked. Modern restrikes often use silver solder. They then use chemicals to darken the colour off. Genuine repaired badges will have silver solder but no attempt will be made to hide the fact.

Fakes seem to get better by the week so collecting can be a nightmare.

Brian
Colour means nothing with fakes as they have lots of techniques to age badges/coins etc.

 

[Lucas]

Re: British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not dug

Great post, thank you!

 

[BloodyBelle]

Re: British Piece "Order of the Garter" regalia insignia medal #3 of LOT not dug

Here's the backs of a few genuine badges showing the different attachments used. The big one posted top right I've borrowed to show a restrike as all mine are detector finds.

There's the earlier slide bar type, the looped type that had a split pin pushed through and the pin type used for small badges.

The restrike or should we call it fake, has loops in this case but they copy anything of any date. As you can see the back is nice and sharp....the clue that its a fake is that the loops are crudely fixed to the body of the badge. In this case to little metal on the left and to much on the right. The real test is feeling the weight and the degree of sharpness/roughness to the edges of the badge.

Loops can be brass or copper. Restrikes could be genuine as Regiments kept the same designs for years and could run out of supplies. The design of the crown thats on many would change if the monarch did which aids dating and meant another production run but this type of restrike retained the qualtiy of the originals.
Original badges were cheap to produce and this meant they were prepared to scrap any imperfect examples.
The "lugs" or flat metal "slider" of the older badges should be checked. Modern restrikes often use silver solder. They then use chemicals to darken the colour off. Genuine repaired badges will have silver solder but no attempt will be made to hide the fact.

Fakes seem to get better by the week so collecting can be a nightmare.

Brian
Colour means nothing with fakes as they have lots of techniques to age badges/coins etc.

Hey Mate! I'm going to revisit the loops on the back of this lot I'm still posting. I do recall one that looked like it was repaired --soldered-- with white metal. I still don't think that a 90 year old lady that dies 30 years ago was into collecting regalia never mind repros.

OK. Upper right is a restrike. How can you tell? How am I supposed to see from the image; it was shown as a comparison?

Should I go back and give a more thorough loop description in my other posts.

And being the social networking yenta that I am--it appears the Gordon Highlanders Museum could use volunteers...

And I will revisit your post as well, it's another one of those that make me have to think. ;-)

Cheers!