Brewerton or Dalton??

[Edgychris1]

Hi Folks,

Here is a couple pieces from a few months back. They have the trademarks of what I think a Dalton is, however was told it is a Brewerton, "Most Likely."

First time I uploaded these ones here.

How do I differentiate the Dalton vs Brewerton, when it comes to these funky ears??

I am certain the quartzite one is a Dalton. I know entire specimen not available, do not know for sure.
I also was told red rhyolite one was a Brewerton. I know one ear is missing but those basses look very close to me. Basel grinding, funky ears ecetra. I was told geography and other finds from same area play a big part. Like what else do I find in this Area? I've found numerous types together with rare ones in this spot. Ie parallel stem, possible Kirk. I've also found Lamoka, Neville, Snappit, Levanna, Stark, Fox Creek, Wading River, Beekman, and a dozen other types ranging from 900bp to possible 10000bp in this same area within 100 yards. So how can I really tell?

A little over a year ago, Charl mentioned that Ritche perhaps misnamed the Dalton of the RI/MA area. Does this Red one fall into this category?


Any input on these pieces?

Brewerton?
Dalton?

Thanks
Chris

 

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[Relicgrubber]

Heartbreakers for sure. Still nice finds Chris!

 

[Older The Better]

I don’t know brewerton but to my knowledge dalton doesn’t have that little shoulder. But the ears do look very similar

 

[Charl]

Recently, some absolutely classic and true Daltons were found at a Ma. site, and it will be published at a future date.

The first point shown here, stands a good chance of being a New England Hardaway Side Notch, which is what you are comparing it to, and from Boudreau’s page on the type. I guess the same point is shown in your third photo.

The subject of the Dalton phase in New England is complex, and I can’t do that subject much justice in this thread. I would never have said that Ritchie may have erred in identifying the New England variant of Hardaway-Dalton points, because he had nothing to do with that. The point type identified as Hardaway-Dalton in New England seldom resembles that style from the type as found in its home region of North Carolina. The New England style of Hardaway-Dalton has never been found in a datable context in New England. As Boudreau stated, this type will, and should, because it is very confusing, receive its own type name once it is found in a datable and undisturbed New England site.

But you are here comparing your points to New England Hardaway Side Notch points.

I’m not going to make a call on the other point shown here, but the first one could fit in with the Hardaway Side Notch points Boudreau shows. Note, that of those he does show, only one point, closely resembles the Hardaway Side Notch type, as described by Coe, not Boudreau. The New England examples of Hardaway Side Notch are seldom classic in form with that type as known and described from North Carolina. Most New England examples will show at least somewhst recurved ears, so typical, and so very distinctive of the Hardaway Side Notch type.

The bottom two rows here are classic Hardaway Side Notch from NC. These are what you are comparing your Ma points to. The upper rows are Hardaway-Daltons, and our New England examples very seldom look like this, although I have one RI example that does.

But, as for classic Dalton, as mentioned, a new discovery has been made, I cannot disclose the location, or show photos prior to publication, but it will be written up, and has been seen by at least one professional working on early sites in New England.



The New England Hardaway’s shown by Boudreau are certainly not the classic form shown in the lower rows of the above illustration. Except for one. This is one reason why we need to find our suggested correlates in a datable and undisturbed context. We cannot blame collectors from NC, for instance, if they do not understand why we are using the Hardaway Side Notch and Hardaway-Dalton type names. Our points likely are related, and derivative of those types, but it is still a murky subject when we are only dealing with surface finds out of context where our examples are concerned. At least where the Hardaway-Dalton type is concerned, Boudreau would be the first to admit we need our own names for these points.

 

[Charl]

Here is a roughly 3” long example of a New England Hardaway-Dalton, in the Robbins Museum of the MAS, and one of the ones illustrated by Boudreau. Note how much it differs from the classic type.



Here, from the Robbins, at 2 3/4”, is the largest New England Hardaway Side Notch, illustrated by Boudreau....



Yet, here is a quartzite point from RI that would easily pass as a Hardaway family point if it had been found in NC....



So, as seen, our points can closely resemble, and also not closely resemble, their Southern counterparts. This is what makes this typology difficult. I believe your first damaged point fits well with Boudreau’s Hardaway Side Notch examples from New England. I am not sure on the 2nd larger point. I am also not an authority at all. Some of Boudreau’s Hardaway Side Notch more closely resemble Hardaway-Dalton to my eyes, adding still more confusion, added to the fact our examples seldom resemble the classic forms. I would not knock myself out trying to sort them out, with all these qualifying observations.

 

[Garscale]

Recently, some absolutely classic and true Daltons were found at a Ma. site, and it will be published at a future date.

The first point shown here, stands a good chance of being a New England Hardaway Side Notch, which is what you are comparing it to, and from Boudreau’s page on the type. I guess the same point is shown in your third photo.

The subject of the Dalton phase in New England is complex, and I can’t do that subject much justice in this thread. I would never have said that Ritchie may have erred in identifying the New England variant of Hardaway-Dalton points, because he had nothing to do with that. The point type identified as Hardaway-Dalton in New England seldom resembles that style from the type as found in its home region of North Carolina. The New England style of Hardaway-Dalton has never been found in a datable context in New England. As Boudreau stated, this type will, and should, because it is very confusing, receive its own type name once it is found in a datable and undisturbed New England site.

But you are here comparing your points to New England Hardaway Side Notch points.

I’m not going to make a call on the other point shown here, but the first one could fit in with the Hardaway Side Notch points Boudreau shows. Note, that of those he does show, only one point, closely resembles the Hardaway Side Notch type, as described by Coe, not Boudreau. The New England examples of Hardaway Side Notch are seldom classic in form with that type as known and described from North Carolina. Most New England examples will show at least somewhst recurved ears, so typical, and so very distinctive of the Hardaway Side Notch type.

The bottom two rows here are classic Hardaway Side Notch from NC. These are what you are comparing your Ma points to. The upper rows are Hardaway-Daltons, and our New England examples very seldom look like this, although I have one RI example that does.

But, as for classic Dalton, as mentioned, a new discovery has been made, I cannot disclose the location, or show photos prior to publication, but it will be written up, and has been seen by at least one professional working on early sites in New England.

View attachment 1914518

The New England Hardaway’s shown by Boudreau are certainly not the classic form shown in the lower rows of the above illustration. Except for one. This is one reason why we need to find our suggested correlates in a datable and undisturbed context. We cannot blame collectors from NC, for instance, if they do not understand why we are using the Hardaway Side Notch and Hardaway-Dalton type names. Our points likely are related, and derivative of those types, but it is still a murky subject when we are only dealing with surface finds out of context where our examples are concerned. At least where the Hardaway-Dalton type is concerned, Boudreau would be the first to admit we need our own names for these points.

Amazing how much the smaller examples look exactly like san patrice. Great info. Thanks for sharing.

 

[uniface]

Amazing how much the smaller examples look exactly like San Patrice

Same points, same time period, different places.

 

[Edgychris1]

Hi Folks,

I am going to dub these points "Charlton". I do believe this is a point neither Dalton nor Brewerton, but possibly unique with characteristics of both. It needs a name and that is a well deserved title for a Rhode Islander with over 50 years of experience.

 

[uniface]

I keep trying to post a picture of one found in Pennsylvania of North Carolina silicified tuff, to illustrate how wide-ranging material and point styles sometimes were during the Early Archaic. But when I hit Upload it tells me I do not have permission to, & to refresh the page & try again. When I do that, the message flushes & I start over. Just one of those nights, I guess.

Pictured @
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/north-american-indian-artifacts/137505-long-way-home.html

Flat base side @ left & clipped toe there is from a modern plough click.

 

[Edgychris1]

I want to take a trip to PA to do some trout fishing and some looking around this summer. Maybe a 5 day road trip to PA. Last time I was in PA was for the first annual Peach Fest in Scranton, Allman Brother. festival. I am just learning dense some of PA ground is. I would like to see a picture of that point Uniface.
Thanks

 

[uniface]

I would like to see that point Uniface.

Gave it to an archeologist who was studying northeastern Early Archaic points a couple years back.