Brass sundial, pre 1700s?

[Coleman]

Going through some things at my grandparents house today and I found what I believe to be a brass sundial possibly dating to 1630.

It is a rough hand cut 6” square with hand etched Roman numbering around the perimeter. At the bottom I think it says long live King Charles and the date 1630. I believe King Charles was 1625-1649.

Is it possible this is genuine and really almost 400 years old? I appreciate any insight into this piece as there is very little about it online that I could find. One other example for sale on Etsy for $1100 but they weren’t sure about history or date either.

 

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[E-Trac-Ohio]

Very interesting !

 

[WoodsDigger]

Going through some things at my grandparents house today and I found what I believe to be a brass sundial possibly dating to 1630.

It is a rough hand cut 6” square with hand etched Roman numbering around the perimeter. At the bottom I think it says long live King Charles and the date 1630. I believe King Charles was 1625-1649.

Is it possible this is genuine and really almost 400 years old? I appreciate any insight into this piece as there is very little about it online that I could find. One other example for sale on Etsy for $1100 but they weren’t sure about history or date either.

That is really cool. If it's a true 1630 amd it could talk !

 

[TORRERO]

To me it looks like a modern fantasy, just to me it doesn't look like it was made in the 1600s

But I'm no professional..

 

[WoodsDigger]

To me it looks like a modern fantasy, just to me it doesn't look like it was made in the 1600s

But I'm no professional..

Fun to daydream. Coat it in grime and bury it for your unsuspecting pal.

 

[AU Seeker]

I'm saying a reproduction piece, it's too clean and has no patina, the nuts on the bottom look brand new.

Here's 2 I found online that have all the same attributes but are slightly different at least in how the phrase "The Hour Paseth" is positioned, they both have some patina that shows some age or at least have spent a bit of time out in the weather, I would say both are much older than yours, but them being from the 1600s I'm not convinced on that either, even with one of them saying it is dated to "1639", but I believe that's just saying what they saw the date on it as being, it's the nuts that would be forged if from the 1600s and these look machine made to me and I would think they would also be bronze and not iron/steel.

Rare Bronze Sundial Dated To 1639

Antique miscellaneous such as this are historical limited editions (date of manufacture is Before 1700). Cherished back then - rare find today. Priced at £429. For sale by Terrier Antiques at Hebden Bridge.

www.sellingantiques.co.uk

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1470754248/antique-1630-the-hour-pases-brass

 

[Coleman]

I'm saying a reproduction piece, it's too clean and has no patina, the nuts on the bottom look brand new.

Here's 2 I found online that have all the same attributes but are slightly different at least in how the phrase "The Hour Paseth" is positioned, they both have some patina that shows some age or at least have spent a bit of time out in the weather, I would say both are much older than yours, but them being from the 1600s I'm not convinced on that either, even with one of them saying it is dated to "1639", but I believe that's just saying what they saw the date on it as being.

Rare Bronze Sundial Dated To 1639

Antique miscellaneous such as this are historical limited editions (date of manufacture is Before 1700). Cherished back then - rare find today. Priced at £429. For sale by Terrier Antiques at Hebden Bridge.

www.sellingantiques.co.uk

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1470754248/antique-1630-the-hour-pases-brass

Thank you for the reply. In hand mine looks identical to that one. The patina could be the difference of being left indoors or outdoors for years. This one has been indoors at least 60 years. My grandfather was an engineer and likely replaced the nuts on the back. I’m not convinced it’s a replica. But I very much value your post and insight.

 

[Coleman]

Here is a profile view showing the gnomon more clearly.

 

[Coleman]

It looks like my grandfather reattached the gnomon in the wrong position after he cleaned it. it should be pointing north and he has it pointing south. That is too funny. That’s why it looks slightly off from the other two mentioned.

 

[Red-Coat]

Nice, but definitely a repro. This from the British Sundial Society, referencing an exhibit in the St Ives Museum, Cornwall (with apologies for the very poor picture):

Among the museum’s exhibits is a brass horizontal dial bearing the date 1630. It is probably not a genuine date since the dial is almost certainly a replica of an earlier dial (at Wigmore Grange [Hertfordshire]) made by Pearson Page who were active in the first half of the 20th century. It carries two mottoes: ’The houre passes’ and ’Long Liffe ye King Charles’. The gnomon has the word ’Angel’ engraved on its side [does yours have that, although it's a different gnomon to the example at St. Ives?].

Pearson-Page were at 10-12, Cecil Street, Birmingham (1907), Ilene Works, Sherlock Street, Birmingham, then Pearson Page Jewsbury, then Peerage, manufacturers of reproduction and original copper and brassware during 1910s-1930s. Production was intended to be good quality period reproductions and was not generally marked.

They were succeeded by the Pearson-Page Jewsbury Co. Ltd., Soho Works, later Westwood Works, Westwood Road, Witton, Birmingham, (not to be confused with Matthew Boulton's Soho Manufactory.) John Jewsbury & Co. Ltd was originally founded in 1883 at 71, Broad Street, Birmingham (later also at Soho Works, Western Road, Birmingham), and took over Pearson-Page’s designs when they were liquidated in 1933. They were in business until 2012.

I would think your sundial is probably by Jewsbury from that later period post-1933, after the demise of the original company.

 

[Coleman]

That one is highly polished and the gnomon is completely different than the other 3 known examples. The edges also don’t look as roughly cut.

Still, the information provided is more than I could find out there and I appreciate the feedback. Very very interesting for sure.

Thank you,

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

That is really cool. If it's a true 1630 amd it could talk !

Agreed. The style of writing is 20th century.

 

[Gene Mean]

This one is on Etsy.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1470754248/antique-1630-the-hour-pases-brass

 

[ncsuwolf]

I’m not a 17th century British brass expert, but the holes in the corners are countersunk to accept a certain type of screw. My understanding is that screws weren’t commonly used until the 1800’s. Exact date doesn’t matter, because this claims to be late 1600s. I’m in agreement with redcoat and others….mid 1900s. Was your grandfather in ww2, or did your grandparents travel to Europe? I’m assuming this was designed to be set on a post in a garden….not unlike a gnome.