Blade and possibly related handle from CW camp

[gtoast99]

Hey everyone! I was wondering if I might get some help with this one...

I dug this blade tip in the middle of a Union camp at the most recent DIV. Everyone I have shown it to in person has agreed that it was some sort of stabbing blade, like a dirk or similar side knife.

While I was going through my scrap iron (I always triple check before throwing it out!) I noticed this handle type object. Well, it got me thinking about that blade tip, so I put them side by side. I could be wrong, but it seems to me they may go together. I do recall digging the handle piece in the same area.

So what do you think? Are they related? Do you know of any examples of dug knives with similar handle shapes? If they aren't related, any clue about either pieces?

I realize I may never know... But I'd love some more opinion on the matter!
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!

 

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[skeeterd]

Looks pretty close to me.

 

[SkyPirate]

Spear? Nice find Tony!

 

[BosnMate]

Although from the photo it seems kind of small, the lack of a hand guard and the rounded part on the handle makes me think lance or spear point. The beginning of the Civil War there was at least one outfit of lancers, but my remember'er is disremembering as to who, what, where and when. Before looking at the photo of the handle I was thinking a trade arrow point.

 

[nhbenz]

I agree they look like they must have been part of the same knife.
Kinda' thinking a throwing knife perhaps?

 

[gtoast99]

Thanks everyone! Not sure about lance or spear for two reasons, although it does have that look about it. One, the location wouldn't make a ton of sense for one, but you never know of course. And two, I think those would have a tubular base for the pole to fit into.

I do think they go together. What has me curious is the shape of the handle. Most I've seen online now would have a flat handle for a wood grip. This has a wider handle in both dimensions, and varying thickness along the length. I'm having a hard time imagining how a grip would fit onto that. Unless it's just a crudely made blacksmith piece, and would have simply been leather wrapped or something similar.

It's a head scratcher. Thanks for the replies!

 

[cti4sw]

I agree they look like they must have been part of the same knife.
Kinda' thinking a throwing knife perhaps?

Throwing knife has my vote.

 

[Gunrunner61]

Maybe a pike......Lance head................Just thinking out loud.........................HH

 

[aquachigger]

Ya know Tony... when you showed that to me in the field, I felt it was part of a stabbing weapon. With the other piece (which I don't remember seeing) it definitely gets my vote as a lance head. Lances were a very common weapon of the Indians and in use well after the European contact period. It is a little unusual in the way it would have had to be hafted, but not unheard of (some are on-line with that design). That design would certainly have been much easier to make by a frontier blacksmith. I'll keep researching it and let you know if I find anything definitive. If indeed that is what it is, it is definitely one of the neatest things I saw from the hunt and worthy of its own display case. It's a beautiful piece.

 

[skynut38]

Wonder if it is some type of medical instrument?

That handle looks pretty small to be a spear tip.

 

[kuger]

I have a VERY similar piece with the exact hafting tang,if I can re-find it,I will post a picture

 

[gtoast99]

Thanks everyone!!

Beau, I didn't show you the handle piece at the picnic. I remember digging it where I found the blade, but I didn't put 2 and 2 together until I got home and was going through the un-id'ed iron. thanks for the help, and I'll start persuing that avenue of research as well.

Kuger, post a pic if you find it. Thanks!

This is what I get for digging all those iron targets

 

[kuger]

Tony,here is mine.I never have found out exactly what the purpose of this one is either but it dates to at least the 1850's

 

[skynut38]

They are close to a trowel bayonet, but not quite.

 

[gtoast99]

Thanks for adding that Kuger. There are obviously some significant differences between them, most notably the width. I agree that yours looks more "trowel" like, while mine is more "blade" like. But in looking online, I saw some pretty wide spear points, too, so I'm not saying yours isn't. The other differences is that on yours, the "handle" part is widest at the top (right/middle) and gets smaller as it goes out to the bottom (left). The "handle" on mine is of uneven thickness, being widest in the middle of the handle.

Beau, I did some looking last night and couldn't find any NA or colonial points with this handle construction. (is that called the haft? sorry for my ignorance on the subject!) If you still have any on hand, would you mind posting a link? I'll keep looking into this one for sure!

 

[pistol-pete]

My two cents worth... Looks like it could be a flat bit that fits an old brace. Appears to be a tapered square end which would definitely fit a brace

 

[kuger]

I agree Tony,I realized that after I re-found mine.Mine has sharpened edges,just as one would see on a spear.There was Chinese Tong Wars in the area I found mine,and it was said that the Chinese Had sinister looking weapons..........this possibly was one?