big rules change in the works for florida salvors ******

[ivan salis]

humm seems at 1 pm on the 26th of June , 2008 at the R A Grey building in Tallahassee there is going to be a input hearing on the "new rules" for salvors to go by --- "big rule" changes have been set up as far as who will be able to apply for the new "renamed" permits -- they are now going to be called called a "reconnaissance"permit -- just "to look at the "wreck" and a "recovey" permit to get anything off it --(the term "salvage contract" has been stricken out)- to "apply" for either one basically you'll have to have everything laid out in writing fully ahead of time and a boat load of cash -- since you 'll tohave a "state approved" archie (master degree at least) on board for a year $$$$$$ --show "full funding" for the project for a year $$$$$--- and other hard to fill requirements that will shut off the ability of all but the most well heeled select few to be able to even "apply" for a permit. ---

I find the timing of this preposed rule change to be very odd frankly -- it seems that the timing of my find in amelia island and the rule changes are set to try t freeze me out of the process -- oh your not "qualified" to apply -- since I don't have a PHD in underwater arch --or big bucks to hire out for it ---

 

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[ScubaFinder]

Ivan, I know I'll be at the meeting, and you should be too. The one thing they have done is invite us to be involved in the discussion of the proposed changes. It would sure be nice if all 75 of the people who attended the salvage meeting showed up for this one too. There are several of us who are actively trying to work with the state and I know we will all be there. I just hope that the salvage community can act with dignity and respect at this meeting, and offer constructive opinions on the proposed changes rather than trying to pick a fight.

The "grapevine" thread is an active discussion on this as well.

Good luck Ivan, and I hope to meet you there.

Jason

 

[ScubaDude]

Here is the link:
http://flheritage.com/archaeology/rule/

Or the other thread on the same topic:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,162170.0.html

Thanks Phips

 

[Tigershores]

IMPORTANT NOTE -- IMPORTANT NOTE -- IMPORTANT NOTE -- IMPORTANT NOTE -- IMPORTANT NOTE -- IMPORTANT NOTE -- IMPORTANT NOTE


Please see note by Shpwrk1 in the "Heard it on the grapevine" Post. His post duplicates a notice recently sent to all current salvors and joining this workshop is the best way for our group to have input in the new proposed rules. Please plan to attend the meeting and tell all other interested parties.

We want to be well represented and make sure all our interests are protected and incorporated into this proposed rule change.

Tiger Shores Recovery, LLC

 

[FISHEYE]

Sounds like its pretty much the same rules for the treasure companies,they just reworded everything or changed the names.So after this meeting is over and no treasure co gets a recovery/salvage contract with the state after jumping thru thier hoops and paying out more $$$,I think it will be time for a class action lawsuit.If the state is trying to discourage people to treasure hunt and recover,i guess they dont value thier job security.If i was a state archie,i would be handing out salvage contract like candy to get as much treasure and funds as possible to keep my job active.No treasure = No state archies.No recovery/salvage contracts = more looters and pirates,the state and the public lose even more.Just like the state getting rid of the isolated finds program.Thier loss again.

 

[ivan salis]

well the "guide lines" are changing -- and the wording is very important -- all word are not the "same" meaning wize -- ie kill vs murder --in both "word" terms a person has died --- say you are driving and a bee comes in the window stinging you by the eye you lose control hitting a man along side the road -- did you kill him? yes because hes dead -- did you murder him --no it was a accident --- but if you were driving along and you saw the man along side the road and said I hate that guy -- and you run him down -- did you kill him yes --did you murder him yes --because you meant to do it thus the "intent" was there you meant to do it--- wordings are often slyly "slightly" changed to fit a certain purpose or reason

thus the word "reconnaisence" vs exploration -- thus does "reconnaisence" mean by the legal meaming of it ? to look at in any way what so ever? -- like just looking at a wreck by diving without actally touching it ?
thus you would need to get a permit to do even the most innocent of looking around once you found a wreck.

the same with changing the word "salvage" to recovery -- salvage has a long standing clear meaning in the legal shipwreck bussiness and the "term" salvage contract is well understood legally -- but recovery? humm not so "clear"

after 13 years of no new contracts -- effective "restraint" of trade / bussiness --is a legal term that crosses my mind

 

[PhipsFolly]

To any and all who attend this Tallahassee meeting... I know how passionate we are about this "business", but let's be professional, listen very carefully to what the "state" has to say, be mature and.... oh screw it! Give 'em Hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I unfortunately will not be able to attend as I had made a personal committment to be with my wife while she takes her state exam for nursing on that date. She has supported me throughout my treasure hunting endeavours so I need to be there for her now. I wish I could physically be at the meeting with everyone, but you can be sure I will be emailing in my comments and concerns and I encourage anyone who can't make it to that meeting to do the same! Brethren of the coast... let's pull together and be heard!!

All the best... Phips

 

[ScubaFinder]

I agree, we do need to pull together and be organized, I'd even considered electing a "speaker" on our behalf so it doesn't turn into a shouting match. The truth is, if you FIGHT with them...you will loose, simple as that. What we need to be doing is offering to do whatever they ask, and doing it as good as they would. In return, all we need is some cooperation in the stalled permitting process.

Who among us wouldn't do what they asked if we felt sure we would get a recovery permit at the end? Their concerns are not ridiculous, it does take a lot of money and experience to recover a shipwreck properly. Believe me, you can sit around and gripe about not having the money, but if you actually FIND one, and by FIND I mean gold in your hand, investors would be knocking down your door. You could easily work with the Fishers to have the conservation done, many have done it before. The truth is, if you found a wreck, you could pull it off by the new standards, provided they gave you the legal right to recover it. That should be our only point of contention, and our focus at the meeting. Detailing WHAT EXACTLY they need from us to get that ever-elusive permit, and some form of reassurance that if we play by the rules, we WILL get the permit.

Talk to Rex Stocker with Heartland Treasure Quest, he has exploration permits, and has found enough to prove he has a wreck, but he can't get the salvage permit. I don't calim to know the reasons, but from the outside it looks like he's jumped through all the right hoops, but still can't salvage.

The other thing I'd like to see changed is the requirement for state approved nautical archaeologists to be members of the RPA (Registry of Professional Archaeologists - www.rpanet.org). This sounds good in theory, but to be a member of RPA, you must sign an agreement which states that you will never work with any group that sells artifacts....thus exculding us. Jim Sinclair was grandfathered in, but outside of him there aren't many choices and his plate stays pretty full as you can imagine.

Taffi Fisher, Jim Sinclair, and some of the guys from Key West are going to be there. I'd say we let them do most of the talking (they've been fighting this battle for a long time) but the more people we have in seats the better. It'd be nice to show them that we are interested, watching, and willing to play by the rules if they will clarify them a little for us and make the permits available to those who do it the right way. If you are a pirate type, stay at home or keep your mouth shut at the meeting...seriously. ARRG will have a flogging line outside after the meeting for those who don't behave. The last thing we need is to give them another reason to not like us as a whole.

Hope to see you all there! Let's start working out carpools and motel sharing, maybe all the Tnetters can stay at one place and have an after party. There will be a private HISPAC meeting at Taffi's house the day after to discuss where to go from here, hopefully I'll have some details to share from that later.

Jason

 

[ivan salis]

I plan to attend and speak about the little mans interest , the weekend type joe who by luck or research
finds a "worth while" treasure wreck and how the system deals with it so he is not kicked to the curb with nothing for his troubles
-- look I'm not stupid . I know the "ropes" -- the state will want the old "royal fifth" 20% off the top ok so be it
they get the "powers that be cut" so things haven't changed that much since 1715 eh?
the salvors that supply the money and sweat deserve the 70 % to 75% for their services, thus I have no issues with that --- but as the "founder of the feast" that is supplying the meal that everyone is
eating and enjoying ( no find means nothing for everyone) I feel that 5% to 10% and credit for the find "thus any book or movie rights" should be awarded to the "actual finder" of the wreck.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Ivan, that would be between you and the salvor, not the state. Sure the state gets a nice representative collection, but the salvor ends up with 80% and credit for the find. Most salvage companies (ours included) would jump on your 10% + credit and book / movie rights deal. If you have an unquestionable treasure wreck that you could prove, that is. The real issue here is getting salvage permits awarded, if we could do that, your wreck would be a no brainer for guys like me. As it stands now, it would be a waste of my time to go after it, because I would almost certainly be denied a salvage contract, just like everyone else who has applied for one in the last 11 years.

If that changes, you're sitting pretty...I'd take your deal (with some verification of course).

Jason

 

[ivan salis]

yes but since all finds are to be "reported" to the state --and all state e mails are "public record" -- the salvors can just request the info in a "blanklet request" and find out what you had to "report" ---the really big issue issue (well really the non issue) of the problem is -- the state iswilling to issue "research" permits but then hang you out to dry when it comes to getting a "salvage" permit -- who in gods name is going to spend money on a project that can not turn a profit ? (lets see pay lots of money to do research to find out just what it is and everything and then you get zippo in return -- not a sound fiscal policy in my book)-- only colleges and folks like that can operate on a "zero profeit basis" and they don't do too much "work" (if a "for profeit" salvor did that his stock holders would most likely sue him for fiscal mismanagement)-- so the salvors sit idle -- the state losses possible income and treasures (20% cut) --- no one gains from this course of inaction but the looters

 

[ashlee1228]

ill be there! anyone needs directions lemme know i only live 20 min form the building...

 

[rgecy]

I would like to see us put together some very tough questions for the meeting and present them in an organized manner. If we can come together as a group, we can hope to change or influence the rule.

Just a few points I had looked at.

First off, under the current rules, they have not issued any Salvage Recovery Permits in 11 years. So what is the purpose of this rule change? Seems like they have the Industry under their thumb! It looks to me like they are covering their butts! They know that under the current guidelines they cannot continue to deny permits without eventually getting sued!

They state that they will issue only as many permits as they can handle or manage. So who will determine how may they can manage? How many do they manage right now, and how many will they be able to add? This is so ambiguous! It is just another way for them to deny permits without reason. There needs to be some exact verbage in this rule that will make them accountable.

What about the credentials for the archaeologist. How many archaeologist in Florida actually meet those requirements? How many are willing to work with a Commercial Salvage Recovery Group? If they (the State) are so willing to work with these groups, why not mandate or designate a list or Archaeologist who would be required to work with the Salvage Recovery Groups. I bet that would really chap their A$$ if they were forced to work with us, but of course we know the state will not do that.

This rule is so ambiguous, they would never have to issue another permit ever and no one could say a damn thing! Think about it! Oh, Our budget was cut and are understaffed! Sorry!

This is just a small tidbit of what I read. Please don't get me started! The list goes on!

Robert

 

[ivan salis]

when your watching me I 'm watching you too --my hands are clean --- are theirs? two can play the spy game esp if you got freinds