🔎 UNIDENTIFIED Bayonet

[EnvoyToTheMolePeople]

I bought this bayonet for $15 earlier today, and I know nothing about it. Neither did the guy who sold it. The only identifying mark is a U.S. at the base of the blade. I think this means it is either an authentic or reproduction Civil War weapon. It seems to have been painted black at some point, but most of it has chipped off. Could anybody shed some light on it's authenticity or tell me what to look for?

 

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[gunsil]

Tube looks too small for a CW bayo, more likely an 1870s-1880s bayo for a trapdoor Springfield 45-70. Still not bad for 15 bucks.

 

[traveller777]

Tube looks too small for a CW bayo, more likely an 1870s-1880s bayo for a trapdoor Springfield 45-70. Still not bad for 15 bucks.

Gunsil likely named it but why not go to school on it. There are littery scores of places on the internet you can research it. It is a socket bayonet and very likely 1800s. Go from there and see what you can find out. Nice buy though. Good job.

 

[crashbandicoot]

15 bucks is a steal for just about any bayonet.Look up some military surplus sites and you,ll see what I mean.

 

[traveller777]

15 bucks is a steal for just about any bayonet.Look up some military surplus sites and you,ll see what I mean.

amen.

 

[EnvoyToTheMolePeople]

Tube looks too small for a CW bayo, more likely an 1870s-1880s bayo for a trapdoor Springfield 45-70. Still not bad for 15 bucks.

I had suspected that might be the case, but I'll do some measurements when I get the chance. I'll see what I come up with. I can compare the inner diameter of the tube with the outer diameter of common rifle barrels. Is there any way to tell if it is original vs reproduction?

 

[DCMatt]

Hard to say if it is original or repro. It looks just like the bayonet I have for my repro 1853 Enfield. A lot of reenactment gear is made to look exactly like the originals.

Here is some info about repro bayonets for sale. They go for $65 - $85 these days. Do some measuring...

From Trackofthewolf.com: U. S. .58 Muskets, including the U. S. Model 1855, 1861, 1863, 1864 Springfield percussion muskets and replicas, the C. S. 1862 Richmond musket, and the original U. S. Model 1865, 1866, 1868, and 1870 Springfield trapdoor rifles.

The imported steel blade is 21" overall length, with a 18" triangular blade, and socket (.825" inner diameter) with locking ring.

 

[EnvoyToTheMolePeople]

I looked into it, and the difference between a model 1855 (potentially civil war) and a model 1873 (indian wars/spanish american war) is that the inner diameter is 0.02 inches larger on the 1855. I'll probably need calipers to measure something like that, so I'll let you all know on monday after I go back to school.

 

[gunsil]

The trapdoor bayos are much smaller inner diameter than a CW bayo, more than .02". Below is a US bayo for a 45-70 on the left and a CW era .577 Enfield on the right, both originals. Sadly I sold my US CW bayos years back.

 

[EnvoyToTheMolePeople]

The trapdoor bayos are much smaller inner diameter than a CW bayo, more than .02". Below is a US bayo for a 45-70 on the left and a CW era .577 Enfield on the right, both originals. Sadly I sold my US CW bayos years back.

Interesting, the website I read may have been talking about units converted from 1855 model to 1873 model in that case. I'll have to checkvthe website later.

 

[EnvoyToTheMolePeople]

Ok, this is what I was looking at. http://arms2armor.com/Bayonets/us1855sb.htm
The difference in diameter was actually closer to 0.05", specifically 3/64 of an inch. However, the diameter difference gunsil posted looks closer to 1/10-1/5 of an inch, which is significantly more.

 

[EnvoyToTheMolePeople]

Another source (http://www.reenactor.ru/ARH/PDF/Webster.pdf) says that an obvious difference between the 73 and the 55 is that the 55 has a 3" long blade socket, while the 73 has a 2 5/8 blade socket. This one has a 3" blade socket. It could be a 55 that was modified for use with the later trapdoor rifles.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Good site for bayonet IDs and gives measurements. First link is the main page, second and third links are for the US bayonet page for period of spike/cruciform bayonets.

Bayonet Identification Guide

Pictures and information on over 440 bayonets and 100 belt frogs from 65 countries.

worldbayonets.com

U.S. 18th and 19th Century Bayonets

Pictures and descriptions of U.S. 18th and 19th Century Bayonets.

worldbayonets.com

U.S. 18th and 19th Century Bayonets

Pictures and descriptions of U.S. 18th and 19th Century Bayonets.

worldbayonets.com

 

[crashbandicoot]

Good site for bayonet IDs and gives measurements. First link is the main page, second and third links are for the US bayonet page for period of spike/cruciform bayonets.

Bayonet Identification Guide

Pictures and information on over 440 bayonets and 100 belt frogs from 65 countries.

worldbayonets.com

U.S. 18th and 19th Century Bayonets

Pictures and descriptions of U.S. 18th and 19th Century Bayonets.

worldbayonets.com

U.S. 18th and 19th Century Bayonets

Pictures and descriptions of U.S. 18th and 19th Century Bayonets.

worldbayonets.com

Good sites Sarge.Useful to all of us.Thank you.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Good sites Sarge.Useful to all of us.Thank you.

Been so preoccupied with turning the house over to the contractors and then the dang fires, that I haven't been on this forum for a few weeks.

Saw the bayonet post, but all mine are in a jumbled pile in the back of the Expedition. So I couldn't help ID it, but knew this site had measurements and information that might prove helpful.

 

[crashbandicoot]

Been so preoccupied with turning the house over to the contractors and then the dang fires, that I haven't been in this forum for a few weeks.

Saw the bayonet post, but all mine are in a jumbled pile in the back of the Expedition. So I couldn't help ID it, but knew this site had measurements and information that might prove helpful.

Understood Sarge,Charlie Mike!

 

[EnvoyToTheMolePeople]

I did a few measurements, and it looks to be consistent with a model 1855 bayonet that was later modified for use on a more modern rifle, making it more similar to a 1873 bayonet. They supposedly used a process called "cold shrinking" to slightly decrease the socket diameter. I have no idea how this would have been done, though. I still can't be sure it isn't a reproduction, aside from the fact that it has obvious age. There is some black pain on the blade that I am going to try and remove with a combination linseed oil and 4-0 steel wool.

 

[traveller777]

I did a few measurements, and it looks to be consistent with a model 1855 bayonet that was later modified for use on a more modern rifle, making it more similar to a 1873 bayonet. They supposedly used a process called "cold shrinking" to slightly decrease the socket diameter. I have no idea how this would have been done, though. I still can't be sure it isn't a reproduction, aside from the fact that it has obvious age. There is some black pain on the blade that I am going to try and remove with a combination linseed oil and 4-0 steel wool.

Let us know what you find.

 

[NHBandit]

quick & easy rule of thumb that's usefull when looking at these US bayonets at an antique shop, flea market, etc is that if a penny will fall through the hole they are likely earlier than 1865. If it won't it's probably for an 1873 Trapdoor

 

[EnvoyToTheMolePeople]

quick & easy rule of thumb that's usefull when looking at these US bayonets at an antique shop, flea market, etc is that if a penny will fall through the hole they are likely earlier than 1865. If it won't it's probably for an 1873 Trapdoor

Definitely an easier test than carrying around a caliper and taking measurements.