✅ SOLVED Bayonet Identification

[OutdoorAdv]

I'm having a really hard time identifying this bayonet that I dug yesterday.

My original post from yesterday with the full story is here http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...olonial-shoe-buckle-bayonet-1819-lc-more.html

It just came out of electrolysis... any ideas on what this might be?

Here are all the measurements. If anyone needs any other shots\angles let me know.










Stamped "111"?


Stamped "17" with maybe some numbers after it?


The crown piece over the socket opening was brazed on. You can actually see the yellow colored metal that joined the two pieces.




Thank you everyone in advance. I can't wait to find out what this went to. I've been searching all over and cant find anything with the same style and dimensions.

 

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[NOLA_Ken]

Could be an Enfield Socket Bayonets

 

[OutdoorAdv]

Thanks Ken. I looked at all the socket bayonets on that sight. I don't think it's an Enfield model, unless there is one I'm missing. All the Enfield bayonets have a steel lip in the middle of the socket to keep the ring from moving around. This is my first bayonet and I am just learning about them in the past day... So I could very well be overlooking something.

My first picture has all the dimensions in it. Based on other socket bayonet dimensions, I believe this one came from a .75 cal or bigger... Its even bigger than any .69 cal dimensions. I'm pretty lost with this one! Its similar to the M1819 US in length and socket design... But the mortise grove is different on mine and its a larger caliber. I'm thinking this bayonet isn't on that site.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Third model Bess (Long Land Pattern) bayonet. I believe 15" was their length and they had the "Z" lug channel like you example.

 

[OutdoorAdv]

Third model Bess (Long Land Pattern) bayonet. I believe 15" was their length and they had the "Z" lug channel like you example.

Thank you Charlie! Do you by chance know where I could see a picture of one? I don't know much about Brown Bess models, so I'm probably looking at the wrong model. I just looked at a bunch of Brown Bess Bayonet's... the socket is shaped similar, but all the Brown Bess ones I looked at had a complete ring around the back of the socket. Mine is just partial with the piece brazed on. Also, the blade shape is different on mine than on the Brown Bess's I saw online. My blade is a little over 15", but the overall length is 18.63. I labeled all the measurements in the first picture using my digital calipers. Thanks again Charlie, looking forward to locking this ID down.

Brad

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Take a look at this one - and consider the sliding lock ring is missing on yours.

The site won't allow the image to be copied.

British musket socket bayonet with brass mounted leather scabbard; bayonet is in fair condition sh

Two key features - yours doesn't have a shoulder where the blade edges transition into the elbow (later Enfield bayonets seem to) and it doesn't have a retaining ridge where a lock-ring would have been. If it had a little extension in the slot for the stud it would be a match for the British 1816 Model.

 

[DizzyRose]

Hi. I know nothing about bayonets but I am quite good of finding stuff on the web. So I had a look around for you. Is this of any help? [emoji257]

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[DizzyRose]

Sorry if I've upset anyone by butting in on a topic I know nothing about. [emoji51]. Just wanted to help. [emoji257]


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[OutdoorAdv]

Hi. I know nothing about bayonets but I am quite good of finding stuff on the web. So I had a look around for you. Is this of any help? [emoji257]

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Thank you everyone. Funny you mentioned this Pattern 1807! I actually emailed an expert this morning and am waiting to hear back... but In my email I sent I found that it most closely matched the specs on the Springfield Pattern 1807 and the brazed on bridge piece might be a later modification. I also found some French gun parts there, so possibly it could be from a French Charleville model... which it is also very close to in its specs.

It occurred to me that the brazed part might be a later modification to make the socket more sturdy. If thats the case, we will not find one thats the exact socket but rather one without the brazed on piece.

I'll keep everyone posted and thank you all for the help.

 

[OutdoorAdv]

Also something else in common with the 1807 is that it has numbers stamped on the socket in the same location as the picture from the internet... although the numbers are different... they are in the same location.

 

[Retired Sarge]

There are three sites that come to mind, that you might be able to e-mail to see if they can shed light on your bayonet. It's a confusing one, it has attributes of one or another, but never all the attributes to positively identify. The z cut or lightning cut is the "Mortise" or "Foresight Slot", the very end of the socket is the "Collar" or "Bridge" yours is either repaired or modified, and is not a full collar/bridge. Yours doesn't have a "Locking Ring Shoulder".

Bayonet Identification Guide - worldbayonets.com

http://www.arms2armor.com/Bayonets/bayonets.htm

Bayonet Collection Presentation

 

[OutdoorAdv]

There are three sites that come to mind, that you might be able to e-mail to see if they can shed light on your bayonet. It's a confusing one, it has attributes of one or another, but never all the attributes to positively identify. The z cut or lightning cut is the "Mortise" or "Foresight Slot", the very end of the socket is the "Collar" or "Bridge" yours is either repaired or modified, and is not a full collar/bridge. Yours doesn't have a "Locking Ring Shoulder".

Bayonet Identification Guide - worldbayonets.com

http://www.arms2armor.com/Bayonets/bayonets.htm

Bayonet Collection Presentation

ffuries,
Thank you for all that info. I actually have an email out to worldbayonets.com. I will look into the other sites as well. I think you're correct about the Collar or bridge being repaired. Actually, a lot of the attributes resemble the Springfield Pattern 1807 mentioned above, with the exception of the bridge (mines brazed) and the face flute in the blade (mines flat). So I think its before that pattern 1807, but due to the the shared attributes between the two, I think its going to be a French Charleville! Those had no bridge and a blade with no flute. Everything else about the shape even the casting marks appear the same as mine. The Charleville didn't have a bridge at all... and since mine has a piece brazed on, I believe its going to be a modification at a later time to reinforce the socket. My problem is I cant find measurement specs for all the various Charleville bayonet models to try and match it to one. I have a feeling one of the experts from the websites you listed will be able to though. I'll update my posts once we get it figured out. If it turns out to be a French Charleville it will be pretty amazing!

Thank you everyone and any additional information would be great.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Look at the P. S. Justice bayonet.

P.S. Justice Socket Bayonet Rare - Items for Sale - J & J Military Antiques

 

[DizzyRose]

ffuries,
Thank you for all that info. I actually have an email out to worldbayonets.com. I will look into the other sites as well. I think you're correct about the Collar or bridge being repaired. Actually, a lot of the attributes resemble the Springfield Pattern 1807 mentioned above, with the exception of the bridge (mines brazed) and the face flute in the blade (mines flat). So I think its before that pattern 1807, but due to the the shared attributes between the two, I think its going to be a French Charleville! Those had no bridge and a blade with no flute. Everything else about the shape even the casting marks appear the same as mine. The Charleville didn't have a bridge at all... and since mine has a piece brazed on, I believe its going to be a modification at a later time to reinforce the socket. My problem is I cant find measurement specs for all the various Charleville bayonet models to try and match it to one. I have a feeling one of the experts from the websites you listed will be able to though. I'll update my posts once we get it figured out. If it turns out to be a French Charleville it will be pretty amazing!

Thank you everyone and any additional information would be great.

It's me again! Just thought I'd let you know two bits of info:
1: It was on worldbayonets.com where I found the information about the 1807. Sorry that I didn't think to say that at the time. :0(
2: I contacted a friend of mine who is nuts about arms and armour and showed him your pictures. He says that it is a French Charleville that has been 'fiddled with' to make it usable on the Springfield gun. (Tho I think he called it a musket, not a gun?) He said he had two of them pass thru his hands over the years and both were as yours, but slightly differing due to the time when they were adapted. He says you're a lucky guy as yours in a very early one and in great condition. There were a couple of other things he said but I had my iPhone in one hand and scribbling furiously as he was talking. I don't know about this sort of item so it was difficult remembering the terminology/names etc he was saying. (Hope that makes sense!)
He said he would be delighted to help with any other bits of guns and cannons, armour and weapons or stuff. Sorry to ramble. [emoji257]


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[Retired Sarge]

The American made Model 1808 (Harpers Ferry Contract) and Model 1810 (Springfield Contract) bayonets are American modified copies of the French Charleville (IE the added bridge). Used on the third Pattern of M1795 Springfield musket, an American arsenal-manufactured version of the .69 caliber French Charleville. So either this was an original French bayonet modified to American standard, a repaired American made bayonet, or repaired and strengthened American bayonet (since the area of the bridge was very thin at first and prone to breaking).

 

[OutdoorAdv]

Thank you all for all the information on this thing.... and I couldn't be happier to mark it as solved

I just got an excellent email back from worldbayonets.com with a wealth of information on the bayonet.

Its a modified Springfield Pattern 1810 Bayonet

Here is the email I received. It easily catapulted this relic into my top finds. I am amazed at this thing.


Really nice job documenting this piece!

Your bayonet is probably of the type made at Springfield Armory ca. 1813-15 as replacements for use with older .69 caliber Springfield contract muskets and old French muskets then under repair at Schuylkill Arsenal in Philadelphia. Your bayonet is based on the Springfield Pattern 1810 bayonet then in production, but has a shorter socket and larger socket diameter to mount to an older musket. The socket on this example is cut for a musket with the bayonet mounting stud on the top of the barrel. 3,000 replacement bayonets were ordered in October 1813, some for top and some for bottom bayonet studs (there not yet being standardization in manufacture of muskets). This was during the War of 1812, so the government was short of muskets and was issuing everything in stores that could be made serviceable to equip militia units.

During this period, bayonets often had a tiny letter or number stamped on the socket forward of the mounting slot, or on the socket bridge, that would match it to a particular musket (which would have the same stamped on the bayonet stud). Bayonets were not interchangeable from musket to musket due to lack of standardization. Once they had a musket and bayonet that fit together, they usually numbered them. True regulation weapons design standardization would not come until after the War and establishment of the Ordnance Department in 1816.

This is the second one of these to come across my desk in the last three months. The flat face on the elbow is an American characteristic, not usually found on European bayonets. Really interesting image showing how the bridge was brazed to the socket.

Congratulations on a very cool American socket bayonet!

I thought it was a Pattern 1807 or a French Charleville... however it was modified to fit on a .69 French Charleville or similar clone. So this isn't American Revolution old, but it could have been fitted for an old French musket used in the American Revolution and then used in the WAR OF 1812!

Thank you all again for everything.

 

[DizzyRose]

You are very welcome and I feel good that I was able to help on a subject that I know nothing about. I really enjoyed the 'hunt' and am so terribly glad to be able to help id your find. [emoji257]


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