August 2017 Finds

[Davers]

I am happy with my finds for August. Enjoy and I can elaborate more on certain pieces if needed.

 

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[N.O. noir et d'or]

Nice group of minie and round balls! Every time I detect one of the old brass cow tags, I think, at first, it's a belt plate - Major disappointment when I realize it's not☹️☹️

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Need some additional closeup photos of your unfired grooved minie. It looks like it might be a CS-made 3-groove minie... and possibly, a "sidecast" one. Does it have the usual cone cavity, or some other form of base cavity?

Also, what cavity type does your Enfield-Pattern minie have? If it has a plug cavity, any marking in the cavity?

Have you put a digital caliper on either of those two unfired minies? If so, what is their diameter measurement? If not, please do, and post the size, in hundredths-of-an-inch.

Thanks, and please pardon my intense curiosity when I think I see something "unusual." You know me... I've gotta know the ID for certain.

 

[Davers]

Nice group of minie and round balls! Every time I detect one of the old brass cow tags, I think, at first, it's a belt plate - Major disappointment when I realize it's not☹️☹️

Thanks N.O. Dan.
The pictures were a rush job , hence no comments.

My wife's phone has a broken outer lens, & tho they looked good on the phone they seem blurry on here + they are sideways.

I really wanted better close-ups (being the perfectionist that I am).

The tag had / has me excited as I don't find many old RR or baggage type tags, I have not researched it yet ' it may be a Cow tag' but it's Face says 73, L.L.& S. CO. Thought I had a LC at first.
Wanted better close ups of the Bullet types as well .

Ill give more info in my reply to the TCBG.

Oh we put the picture of the Silver Ring on Today's Finds.
Could use better pictures there as well LOL.
Thanks for waiting for crappy pic's.

 

[Davers]

Need some additional closeup photos of your unfired grooved minie. It looks like it might be a CS-made 3-groove minie... and possibly, a "sidecast" one. Does it have the usual cone cavity, or some other form of base cavity?

Also, what cavity type does your Enfield-Pattern minie have? If it has a plug cavity, any marking in the cavity?

Have you put a digital caliper on either of those two unfired minies? If so, what is their diameter measurement? If not, please do, and post the size, in hundredths-of-an-inch.

Thanks, and please pardon my intense curiosity when I think I see something "unusual." You know me... I've gotta know the ID for certain.

Thanks for your cool reply , Glad you noticed the 'Types ' as I did.

Sorry for the bad pictures , I did want to show the cavities but the Wife's phone was not up to it.
W/O putting a caliper on the 2 in question , ...ill do it real quick with my no digital ones..........OK the Enfield comes in right at or a little under .52 & the 'Sharpe Groove' What I've come to call it is at .57 as best I can tell. Thought it was a 54 Glad I measured. The Sharpe Groove has a Cone Cavity could be a Ogival or Parabolic Lets just say 'Cone' as there is a little bit of dirt in the tip of the "Cone".
Now the Enfied type has a Small plug with a slight 'Teat' in it ( Not as deep / about half imo as normal marked 57, L ect, Enfield types. Really surprised it ran around .52, guess it would load easy in a .54 barrel.

One of the fired 3 ringers in the picture has a nice little teat in it.

Also it's hard to see but the small pistol /Rifle? bullet with 2 groves is about .35 .
I put it in cause it had no 'reeds' in it;s groves but I still reckon it's Modern or Post Civil War.

The round ball's are Lead Case shot of but I suppose you knew that.

I have other bullets from this area I have not Cleaned yet mostly fired types but a dropped Enfield or 2 & maybe a few other drops but most are Med Velocity Impacts.

Bullets from both sides , I got 1 Tin Back 'I ' button last year & 1 GS Cuff 3 years ago when I first hunted the area.
It's developed all around this smallish spot & it's been hunted since detecting started around here.
So I'm Very lucky to get what I have.

I put these relics together for a Find of the Month at my Club & wanted some opinions on the Bullet types but out of 25+ people barely got a 'that a Boy'. I really wanted info on the Enfield & the 3 ringer you asked about. I knew they were "Unusual" , so thanks for your interest , it makes me fell good that someone like 'The Cannon Ball Guy' Noticed .

I hope to take better pictures but I usually takes me some time.
Have a Great Holiday Weekend.
Davey, Davers

 

[N.O. noir et d'or]

Thanks N.O. Dan.
The pictures were a rush job , hence no comments.

My wife's phone has a broken outer lens, & tho they looked good on the phone they seem blurry on here + they are sideways.

I really wanted better close-ups (being the perfectionist that I am).

The tag had / has me excited as I don't find many old RR or baggage type tags, I have not researched it yet ' it may be a Cow tag' but it's Face says 73, L.L.& S. CO. Thought I had a LC at first.
Wanted better close ups of the Bullet types as well .

Ill give more info in my reply to the TCBG.

Oh we put the picture of the Silver Ring on Today's Finds.
Could use better pictures there as well LOL.
Thanks for waiting for crappy pic's.

You're right David, it's definitely not a cow tag. As the cow tags I've dug, always just have a number (no other writing) and are slightly larger. Of course, nothing would be as nice as digging a belt plate, but finding old RR and baggage tags are fun as well! I'm excited to see what CB Guy concludes about your two unusual rounds.

 

[Davers]

You're right David, it's definitely not a cow tag. As the cow tags I've dug, always just have a number (no other writing) and are slightly larger. Of course, nothing would be as nice as digging a belt plate, but finding old RR and baggage tags are fun as well! I'm excited to see what CB Guy concludes about your two unusual rounds.

Thanks Buddy
Good day to you & yours.
P.S. The Enfield was the one I got all excited about digging in the message I sent you a few weeks ago.
I knew there was something about that one. lol

 

[relic nut]

Great job on saving the history Davers! Glad to see you getting out and having some luck. I've not been digging much lately but hope to get out soon. It's nice to see your finds in the meantime.
Good luck and keep that lead coming. [emoji106]

HH, RN

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Davers, thank you for providing the bullets' size and other info I asked for. I suspected the "Enfield-pattern" was a VERY rare variety of .54 with a "plug cavity" and a slight (wide but thin) cap on the nose. So far as I know, it only comes from CS Army Of Tennessee sites. Congrats.

Since you say you've got the Thomas-&-Thomas "Handbook of Civil War Bullets & Cartridges", the narrow-grooves minie seems to be T&T bullet #168, a ".54-caliber Rifle-Musket, side cast, Southern manufacture" minie. The side-casting mark is in the shape of a small (1/4-inch long) FLAT oval, ALWAYS located on the mold-seam, on the curving side of the bullet's nose. The flat oval is usually split lengthwise by a tiny raised ridge, which was made by the nipper which cut off the casting-mold sprue. Sometimes the small flat oval is hard to see. There is a chance that it is a "heel-cast" version of the side-cast minie. This one also is a scarce bullet (but not "VERY" scarce). It shows up mainly at 1863 sites in Tennessee. I dug several at the Stones River / Murfreesboro TN battlefiled. I'm a bit surprised to hear that yours was found at an Atlanta Campaign site. Again, congrats.

Since you mentioned finding a fired minie with a teat in its base... I almost forgot to mention, for anybody here who doesn't already know:
Any Minie-bullet with a teat in its base-cavity is Confederate-made. The teat was added to the bulletmold's cavity as an attempt to "catch" and thereby render harmless any airbubbles in the molten lead which could cause a "blow-through" flaw in the cast lead bullet. One of the photos below shows such a bubble in a minie's base-cavity, and the other shows an internal bubble. The gunpowder's firing-blast could cause the thinner lead above and below the bubble to "blow through" -- which would cause the bullet to lose most of its flying energy and thus fall way short of the intended target.

 

[Davers]

Thanks a Ton TCBG

You describe the 54 cal 'To a T' I actually thought the "Flat Oval" was damage from being dropped or stepped on Way back when.

The info on the Enfield is great! ,Like you I love anything out of the ordinary

Also Cool that you pictured the "air bubble" Minnie as one of the fired ones pictured in this grouping has a almost identical bubble hole in it's cavity. Ill bet the Soldier did not know how close he came to a 'Blow Out' .

It's neat that through hunting this area I now can almost picture in my mind where the Soldiers of both sides , met , fought , & Traveled the area. I do keep everything by site found no GPS ; tho it would be cool.

I was near this site last hunt and 'Luckily' found a few more Civil War Bullets about 8 , all were fired 3 ringers with 3 or 4 being High impact "Squashed" Minnie's , I did get the tip of 1 Enfield , it looked to me at the time like a 54 Type but the bottom half was Chewed by something... An interesting discovery.

I also dug various brass pieces 3 rivets with leather still attached 'all from the same hole' as for time period Iron is everywhere? Then I found some short Rim-fire cases , then a Bullet , then a Cartridge that looked familiar.

Anyhow I got home & looked in my T&T Handbook , BTW , I also have M & M's Book.
The cases , bullet & Cartridge turned out to be 41 cal , ' Derringer' # 44 in The T&T Handbook.

My only ? is were these Civil War Era ? or post war? Yes they are in the book, but the little research I did by google yesterday said the rim-fire was 1866? Unlike the Derringer used to Kill Lincoln as you know was a cap & ball type. Also a few of the 41 RF bullets showed no rings , mine have rings ' if that matters.
I have not checked the Cases for a " C.D. Mark" tho I did not notice one in the field.

Heck they are cool finds even if post war as I save all the old 'Good condition ' bullets & Complete Cartridges I Dig, 'For a Display '"Some Day"

All in all I think this site is later but did see some Civil War Action as evidenced by the Minnie's & with lots of Iron ; I'm gonna put the 5 inch loop on the G2+ & go slow , I needed a new area to hunt , & this area should keep me busy for a Good While & if later than Civil War , Seated, Barbers , IH's are welcome.
Sorry for the long post & i'm a details Guy , likely too much So .lol

So from the land of Few Gardener & Fewer 'Big 69's' & The Nudist Brigades.

I wish You & everyone Good Day / Eve.

Thanks again for the info as I learned something new ( the casting cut) .

 

[Davers]

Thanks a Ton TCBG

You describe the 54 cal 'To a T' I actually thought the "Flat Oval" was damage from being dropped or stepped on Way back when.

The info on the Enfield is great! ,Like you I love anything out of the ordinary

Also Cool that you pictured the "air bubble" Minnie as one of the fired ones pictured in this grouping has a almost identical bubble hole in it's cavity. Ill bet the Soldier did not know how close he came to a 'Blow Out' .

It's neat that through hunting this area I now can almost picture in my mind where the Soldiers of both sides , met , fought , & Traveled the area. I do keep everything by site found no GPS ; tho it would be cool.

I was near this site last hunt and 'Luckily' found a few more Civil War Bullets about 8 , all were fired 3 ringers with 3 or 4 being High impact "Squashed" Minnie's , I did get the tip of 1 Enfield , it looked to me at the time like a 54 Type but the bottom half was Chewed by something... An interesting discovery.

I also dug various brass pieces 3 rivets with leather still attached 'all from the same hole' as for time period Iron is everywhere? Then I found some short Rim-fire cases , then a Bullet , then a Cartridge that looked familiar.

Anyhow I got home & looked in my T&T Handbook , BTW , I also have M & M's Book.
The cases , bullet & Cartridge turned out to be 41 cal , ' Derringer' # 44 in The T&T Handbook.

My only ? is were these Civil War Era ? or post war? Yes they are in the book, but the little research I did by google yesterday said the rim-fire was 1866? Unlike the Derringer used to Kill Lincoln as you know was a cap & ball type. Also a few of the 41 RF bullets showed no rings , mine have rings ' if that matters.
I have not checked the Cases for a " C.D. Mark" tho I did not notice one in the field.

Heck they are cool finds even if post war as I save all the old 'Good condition ' bullets & Complete Cartridges I Dig, 'For a Display '"Some Day"

All in all I think this site is later but did see some Civil War Action as evidenced by the Minnie's & with lots of Iron ; I'm gonna put the 5 inch loop on the G2+ & go slow , I needed a new area to hunt , & this area should keep me busy for a Good While & if later than Civil War , Seated, Barbers , IH's are welcome.
Sorry for the long post & i'm a details Guy , likely too much So .lol
GD
& Thanks again for the info as I learned something new ( the casting cut) .

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Davers asked:
"My only ? is were these Civil War Era ? or post war?"

The .41 Derringer cartridges (by C.D. Leet) were made during the civil war and after. So, could be either. I've seen a .41 Derringer bullet which had a "reeded/knurled" groove, which means it was made sometime after 1877. I can't answer about the ones you found without seeing closeup photos of them. Just to muddy up the water here's a link about some .41 cartridges which may be of interest. The ones with a raised-lettering "US" headstamp are from the 1880s at the earliest. Scroll about 1/3rd down the webpage for the .41 photos and info.
http://www.oldammo.com/may09.htm

 

[Davers]

Thanks for the info , I figured these would be tough to put in a certain time frame.

They do look just like the ones in the T & T Hand Book ; The 41's on the "Oldammo" site (or the 1) is different.

Ill see what I can do about some pic's (Using my Camera) , while at it , I 'hope' to post better pictures of the Enfield , & the CS-54.
I really appreciate your time, As do other members .
U . Good-Man . As an old Indian would say.
Davers

 

[hbru123]

Awesome finds!

 

[scruggs]

Very nice assortment of artifacts.

 

[devldog]

Daver's, "Done Good" in August brother man. Well Done on some cool CW History being saved. Continued Success to you.

 

[Davers]

Daver's, "Done Good" in August brother man. Well Done on some cool CW History being saved. Continued Success to you.

Thanks devildog.
It can be like 'Work' these days especially in the Summer.

 

[devldog]

You are absotively, posolutely correct about that. The heat coupled with our humidity gets worse with age. I'm a Fall, Winter type of hunter. No unbearable heat, No ticks, and No no shoulders to have to worry about.

 

[Davers]

You are absotively, posolutely correct about that. The heat coupled with our humidity gets worse with age. I'm a Fall, Winter type of hunter. No unbearable heat, No ticks, and No no shoulders to have to worry about.

Sorry I missed your reply devldog.
Fall / Cold seems to be here now, it kept me home today.