Artillery(?) button age? - SOLVED (or not?)

[BlackX]

Found this last night (in the rain).

From some googling, it looks to be an artillery button--which I guessed at the time but thought those were crossed artillery shells not cannon--but I'm trying to determine the age of it. The oldest coin I've found here is a 1900 IH and, if the that loop on the back is stainless steel, that would seem to limit the oldest end of the range around the turn of the century or a bit before. (But this site is also immediately adjacent to a much older road.) WWI? Other? Thx.

 

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[BlackX]

Re: Artillery(?) button age?

Who's the button master here?

 

[BuckleBoy]

Re: Artillery(?) button age?

Looks like an Ordinance Corps button. I'm not sure of the age. But the back appears to be iron rather than brass, and the shank a more modern style...

 

[BlackX]

Re: Artillery(?) button age?

Looks like an Ordinance Corps button. I'm not sure of the age. But the back appears to be iron rather than brass, and the shank a more modern style...

Thanks. I remember seeing reference somewhere to roughly being able to tell the age of buttons by their construction but I can't find it now.

And, yes, Dig Dug rocked! I can still remember where I used to play that most of the time.

 

[Montana Jim]

Re: Artillery(?) button age?

It's a U.S. Army Regimental Insignia... and yes, it is Ordanance Corps.

"The crossed cannons are representative of the Ordnance Corps' early relationship to the Artillery. The flaming bomb, also known as the shell and flame, represents the armament of days gone by, while the energy it connotes is applicable to the weapons of our own day."

Source: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/branches/Ordnance.htm

Age? The back is steel, not as old as the brass... I don't think... still looking.

 

[Montana Jim]

Re: Artillery(?) button age?

It's a different style button, and different manufacturer I'm sure - but you'r button could well be CW era.


Check the bottom of the page... http://www.relicman.com/ButtonFedGov.htm

Update: I am incorrect... PBK nails it below.

 

[PBK]

Re: Artillery(?) button age?

It's a French Artillery button, c. 1873-1914:

http://j.segalen.chez-alice.fr/Militaire.htm

http://j.segalen.chez-alice.fr/2816.jpg

 

[Montana Jim]

Re: Artillery(?) button age? - SOLVED

PBK... Thanks

I read this hours ago...

"In May 1833, designs for a new and distinctive button for Ordnance were prepared by J.H.L. & W.H. Scovill of Waterbury, CT, at the request of Lieutenant D. Tyler, Ordnance Department. After some alteration, a button containing crossed cannon barrels, with a "U" on one and "S" on the other, having approved by General-in-Chief of the Army. The Corps, however, continued to wear the artillery buttons on their uniforms until a year later when the Commissary General informed Colonel Bomford that as soon as he had received the new buttons from the manufacture he would send them to the ordnance stations to replace those then being worn. This button, except for the "US" was an almost exact copy of the French artillery button of the period. It introduced the shell and flame into Ordnance, and at a time when its use by other branches as a distinctive device was negligible."

Source: http://www.patriotfiles.com/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=8682&page=1

It never dawned on me to look for a French example!

 

[La Beep]

Re: Artillery(?) button age? - SOLVED

On the French buttons both cannons are the same on all the buttons you listed. There are different cannons on the button in question. It should be easy to find... Very unique style of button.

 

[BlackX]

Re: Artillery(?) button age? - SOLVED?

Interesting.

That's a damn close match. But something bothered me about it that didn't seem to quite match. So I created this image to compare the two. (I could toggle back and forth in Photoshop to compare but this can show it for others.) They could be the same thing IF that French button was photographed from very close with a wide angle lens. But the distance from the edges of the cannons to the edge is pretty different. One certainly is a copy or variation of the other though.

Anyone have any thoughts as to what material that loop might be if it's not stainless? Was anything else used earlier than SS that would last better than the presumably normal iron back did?

PBK, how did you find that image? (That's pretty amazing.)

 

[BlackX]

BTW, would this have been a normal uniform or coat button or is it a collar insignia button?

(Staring at the animation more, I noticed the bulbous area on the ends of the cannons in the French version is larger than the one I found too. So, at this point, I'm thinking it's not just a wide-angle photo difference but definitely either a variation of the French button or the U.S. copy MJ mentioned. I'd like to find a photo of that one but no luck yet on the web.)

Thanks for your help y'all!

 

[PBK]

There are many varieties of the French artillery buttons, just are there are of, say, U.S. eagle buttons of roughly the same period.

Both the cannons and the flaming grenade/bomb can and do differ slightly in size, details, etc.

For example, here's a one-piece variety, with bird-cage shank, from the 1870's.

​

The U.S. Army Ordnance Corps buttons mentioned by Montana Jim have a wide, plain rim and a lined field (background), and as you can see, the cannons and bomb differ significantly as well.

​

Here is a link to photos of two dug Ordnance Corps buttons of the Civil War period:

http://relicman.com/ButtonFedGovOrdnance.htm#B5157

 

[BlackX]

Thanks.

I gather that all the U.S. ones have the rim. (All the ones I could find online sure did but they were almost all Civil War provenance.) Is that correct?

Besides the help here, how can I learn more? Is that sort of detailed info available on the web or would I have to find specialty books? Other?

 

[PBK]

Thanks.

Besides the help here, how can I learn more? Is that sort of detailed info available on the web or would I have to find specialty books? Other?

Probably the single best book for identifying U.S. military buttons is Record of American Uniform Buttons by Alphaeus H. Albert.

Uniform Butons of the United States, 1776-1865 by Warren K. Tice is also very good.

For button backmarks and dates, I would recommend either (or both!) of the following:

Dating Buttons by Warren K. Tice

American Military Button Makers and Dealers; Their Backmarks & Dates by William F. McGuinn and Bruce S. Bazelon


Here are a few helpful websites:

http://www.waterburybutton.com/patterns.shtml

http://www.civilwarbuttons.com/

http://pw1.netcom.com/~jimyce/bm.html

http://www.oldcopper.org/button_makers.htm

http://www.vintagebuttons.net/educational.html

 

[BlackX]

Thanks! I've bookmarked this to follow up on the book references and am going to save the links for those sites too. Appreciate the help!

_Rich_