Anyone recognize this pewter button?

[Jason H.]

Hi everyone, I just posted this button in the Cleaning forum looking for tips on how to proceed, but I was hoping someone in this forum might recognize it as it is.

Last Sunday, I was digging with a buddy in the foundation of a long-gone building from the 18th century. Oyster shells, glass, pewter utensils, shoe buckles, and pipe bowls were all suggesting 1700s. My friend dug a 1699 jeton there last week. This pewter button was a few inches from a brass shoe buckle about 3 feet down. It looks like a barrel and has some writing but I can only make out a few letters here and there. Has anyone seen a button like this before?

Thanks for any help!
-Jason

 

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[johnnyblaze]

Maybe some kind of sporting button
You need to use the peroxide treatment on that.Is that writing on it?


Blaze...

 

[BioProfessor]

I am not a big fan of peroxide on pewter buttons that show edge separation. Any water-based cleaner will get in between the layers and it usually doesn't go well. You may wind up with less button than you have now as the edge flakes away. I also see a crack in the front and that is probably about the end of the edge deterioration. That may all break away.

I have been playing around a bit with some things to help stabilize the flaked pewter. The best thing I have found to date is super glue - regular and gel. I apply it to the edges only and try to let it soak in to fill all the gaps. Once that is done, I then use a weak phosphoric acid solution - diet coke (weakest) to Casey Birchwood Rust and Bluing Remover (medium) to Naval jelly thinned with water (strongest) - on a Q-tip to touch to the surface and then remove with a Q-tip wet with water. Sort of the "wax on - wax off" thing.

I would start cleaning on the back and get your technique down before moving to the front.

If the surface doesn't turn white when you try to clean, it's not working. Just go SLOW.

And if you clean the back first, you can confirm pewter but from the flaking it looks like it is.

How are you aging the pipe stems?

What was the Jetton?

Daryl

 

[johnnyblaze]

Yes i have had them fall apart on me..I like the super glue idea..Peroxide works well on the brass and copper.
It looks like some kind of barrel from my point of view...


Blaze...

 

[BioProfessor]

Yep. Pewter is a whole 'nother bird. Not a nice bird when it's brittle and flaky.

Daryl

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I see the barrel and I also see what looks like Roman numerals or Phoenician lettering on the right side of the picture.

 

[johnnyblaze]

I see the barrel and I also see what looks like Roman numerals or Phoenician lettering on the right side of the picture.

Looks like the type of barrel you would keep a snake in


Blaze...

 

[Jason H.]

I am not a big fan of peroxide on pewter buttons that show edge separation. Any water-based cleaner will get in between the layers and it usually doesn't go well. You may wind up with less button than you have now as the edge flakes away. I also see a crack in the front and that is probably about the end of the edge deterioration. That may all break away.

I have been playing around a bit with some things to help stabilize the flaked pewter. The best thing I have found to date is super glue - regular and gel. I apply it to the edges only and try to let it soak in to fill all the gaps. Once that is done, I then use a weak phosphoric acid solution - diet coke (weakest) to Casey Birchwood Rust and Bluing Remover (medium) to Naval jelly thinned with water (strongest) - on a Q-tip to touch to the surface and then remove with a Q-tip wet with water. Sort of the "wax on - wax off" thing.

I would start cleaning on the back and get your technique down before moving to the front.

If the surface doesn't turn white when you try to clean, it's not working. Just go SLOW.

And if you clean the back first, you can confirm pewter but from the flaking it looks like it is.

How are you aging the pipe stems?

What was the Jetton?

Daryl

Thanks for the comments guys. Notice on the left side there appears to be waves? When I first dug it, my friend suggested it was like a button recently posted that had two ships sailing on the water. It commemorated some historical event, but I can't recall the details. It may not be related to that at all.

Daryl- I really appreciate the cleaning tips. Maybe if I can get some of the crud off this button, the lettering can help ID it.

Pipe stems can be dated by measuring the bore that goes through them- the smaller the hole, the later the time it was made.

It was a French jeton featuring King Louis XIV on the obverse and a tree on the reverse. Thanks again!
-Jason

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I see the barrel and I also see what looks like Roman numerals or Phoenician lettering on the right side of the picture.

Looks like the type of barrel you would keep a snake in


Blaze...

I didnt know about the snake barrels but it looks like the type of keg for liquids.

 

[BioProfessor]

Just a little info about the white clay pipe stems. It was not an easy process and the Dutch - who made lots of the pipes - didn't get very good at it until porcelain makers from the Orient arrived. So it is easier to judge the size of the stem or the size of the bowl. The larger the stem the older the pipe. Ones the size of pencils are about late 1700's. Very small ones are late 1800's. Also the smaller the bowl the older the pipe. Large stems should have small bowls.

Hope this helps and maybe will match the date of the Jetton.

Daryl

 

[CRUSADER]

Agree its a barrel (for Beer/Cider) & with the foral decor the button needs to be turn 90 degrees so the barrels laying & the letters are at the base. Its not military & clearly very late 18th C but haven't seen one quite like it.

 

[Jason H.]

BioProfessor- thanks for the info on clay pipes; I have retrieved several intact bowls along with about 50 stem pieces.

Crusader- Due to its probable age, I thought there was a good chance of it being British in origin. Thanks for the tip on the orientation! Do you have any pictures of similar buttons? Thanks again!

-Jason

 

[johnnyblaze]

I would say use bio's technique with the glue on it ..
It can be a long process to clean it but it just might be a rare one.
See if you can get the writing on it..that will always id something better..


Blaze...

 

[Jason H.]

I would say use bio's technique with the glue on it ..
It can be a long process to clean it but it just might be a rare one.
See if you can get the writing on it..that will always id something better..


Blaze...

Thanks Blaze, yeah, if I can get a few complete words off this button that will probably be enough to ID it.

-Jason

 

[CRUSADER]

BioProfessor- thanks for the info on clay pipes; I have retrieved several intact bowls along with about 50 stem pieces.

Crusader- Due to its probable age, I thought there was a good chance of it being British in origin. Thanks for the tip on the orientation! Do you have any pictures of similar buttons? Thanks again!

-Jason

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=22624&cat=all
Problem is most of the collected & pictured 18th C - early 19th C pewter buttons are military & although I have quite a few geometric designs from the period, I have not seen a barrell in any of my books. Plus never seen one.

I think its safe to say its English (late 18th-early 19th C) & probably a rare type. Although many surviving pewter buttons are fairly rare as they don't hold up well & break up. So as others have said treat it before it drys & flakes to pieces.

 

[Jason H.]

BioProfessor- thanks for the info on clay pipes; I have retrieved several intact bowls along with about 50 stem pieces.

Crusader- Due to its probable age, I thought there was a good chance of it being British in origin. Thanks for the tip on the orientation! Do you have any pictures of similar buttons? Thanks again!

-Jason

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=22624&cat=all
Problem is most of the collected & pictured 18th C - early 19th C pewter buttons are military & although I have quite a few geometric designs from the period, I have not seen a barrell in any of my books. Plus never seen one.

I think its safe to say its English (late 18th-early 19th C) & probably a rare type. Although many surviving pewter buttons are fairly rare as they don't hold up well & break up. So as others have said treat it before it drys & flakes to pieces.

That is a really interesting site, thanks for the link! I'm going to try to treat and stabilize it tonight and see if any cleaning can be done after that. If I'm able to ID it then, I'll post a reply here. Thanks!

 

[CRUSADER]

BioProfessor- thanks for the info on clay pipes; I have retrieved several intact bowls along with about 50 stem pieces.

Crusader- Due to its probable age, I thought there was a good chance of it being British in origin. Thanks for the tip on the orientation! Do you have any pictures of similar buttons? Thanks again!

-Jason

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=22624&cat=all
Problem is most of the collected & pictured 18th C - early 19th C pewter buttons are military & although I have quite a few geometric designs from the period, I have not seen a barrell in any of my books. Plus never seen one.

I think its safe to say its English (late 18th-early 19th C) & probably a rare type. Although many surviving pewter buttons are fairly rare as they don't hold up well & break up. So as others have said treat it before it drys & flakes to pieces.

That is a really interesting site, thanks for the link! I'm going to try to treat and stabilize it tonight and see if any cleaning can be done after that. If I'm able to ID it then, I'll post a reply here. Thanks!

DON'T try & clean it. It is as clean as it will get, I promise

 

[Bramblefind]

Maybe it is a canteen?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I rotated but maybe they are Roman numerals and would be on the top?

 

[CRUSADER]

I rotated but maybe they are Roman numerals and would be on the top?

maybe but that would put the rococo leaf scrolling pattern up-side-down. (give it ago, if its a late 18th C date then spot on)