Any ideas on the Spencer cartridge?

[flyinryan2]

I found this on Tuesday here in Winchester. I know its a Spencer cartridge but its the first that i have found with this slot in the back? I was wondering if it was made for a purpose or was it just a soldier passing time? Also does anyone know why some of these come out of the ground almost perfect like it was never loaded with gun powder and a bullet? The ones that were loaded almost always rot away with nothing but the bullet and the rim of the casing left. Any input on the mystery cartridge would be great.
Thank you,
Ryan.

 

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[DCMatt]

I've never seen anything like it. The slot looks machine punched. I read of soldiers using gunpowder and paper from rolled cartridges to start fires. Maybe they emptied the powder from these then puched the end to set off the prime? Hopefully one of the gun guys will chime in.

The ones you find with the bullet and rim are probably drops. Due to the corrosive nature of the gunpowder, it eats away the brass. After they are fired - no more powder...

I see you guys are proving that Winchester is NOT hunted out. I've been out there a few times over the years but never dug very much. Nice to see more stuff coming out of the ground.

DCMatt

 

[flyinryan2]

I've never seen anything like it. The slot looks machine punched. I read of soldiers using gunpowder and paper from rolled cartridges to start fires. Maybe they emptied the powder from these then puched the end to set off the prime? Hopefully one of the gun guys will chime in.

The ones you find with the bullet and rim are probably drops. Due to the corrosive nature of the gunpowder, it eats away the brass. After they are fired - no more powder...

I see you guys are proving that Winchester is NOT hunted out. I've been out there a few times over the years but never dug very much. Nice to see more stuff coming out of the ground.

DCMatt

Thank you DCMatt!!! The farm is about 400 acres and all my finds from Sunday and Tuesday came out of a 100 ft x 100 ft square! It was just a small camp here and nothing but stray bullets all around till you get to the other side of the property where i think a Artillery depot was at! But its in a field and the farmers don't let us in the fields where they harvest crops( But i think a few more conversations with them and maybe we can set up times when and when we cant be in those fields.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

DCMatt is right, soldiers used gunpowder from cqrtridges to start a campfire when rainstorms had drenched the available firewood. (That is why we dig so many "dropped" fire-melted Minie-balls in army campsites.) Getting the powder was simple if the soldiers had paper cartridges. If the cartridges were metal, you'd have to carefully remove the bullet, lest you set off the gunpowder. I mention all of that to set up my answer to DCMatt's question.

DCMatt wrote:
> Maybe they emptied the powder from these then puched the end to set off the prime?

The primer in civil war rimfire casings is located only in the rim. None was put in the center, because that isn't where the firing-pin hits the casing's base, so, putting primer in the center is wasteful.

To determine whether a civil war rimfire casing was taken apart to get the powder for firestarting, or is a fired casing, looked for a firing-pin's imprint on the rim. Important note: the Spencer Rifle's firing-pin was shaped more like a hammer than a pin, so you look for a flat crush-mark on a Spencer casing's rim, not a pin-mark (or regarding Henry casings, a bar-mark.)

Regarding Flyinryan2's "pierced" casing (or whatever it is):
I can't be sure from just the single photo whether it is a Spencer casing, or something else. As keen-eyed DCMatt mewntion, the slot in it does look "machine-punched." Notice that the slot seems to be perfectly centered in the object's base. Also, one end of the slot is square, and the other is rounded. A knife-stab would make a slot with a (narrow) V-shaped end. Flyinryan, are you sure the object is a bullet-casing? If it is, I can't think of a reason for putting the perfectly-centered, round-ended slot in it.

 

[DCMatt]

Thx TCG. Learned something today. I did not know they were rim fire only.

I'm curious if the hole is truely round at on end or if it has dirt in it to make it look round in the pic? I was trying to think of something that a soldier might have to punch such a hole. How about a rifle tool/screwdriver?

It would be the right size and might be sharp enough to punch thru without deforming the base. Just a thought... Of course I still have no idea why someone would do such a thing...

DCMatt

DCMatt is right, soldiers used gunpowder from cqrtridges to start a campfire when rainstorms had drenched the available firewood. (That is why we dig so many "dropped" fire-melted Minie-balls in army campsites.) Getting the powder was simple if the soldiers had paper cartridges. If the cartridges were metal, you'd have to carefully remove the bullet, lest you set off the gunpowder. I mention all of that to set up my answer to DCMatt's question.

DCMatt wrote:
> Maybe they emptied the powder from these then puched the end to set off the prime?

The primer in civil war rimfire casings is located only in the rim. None was put in the center, because that isn't where the firing-pin hits the casing's base, so, putting primer in the center is wasteful.

To determine whether a civil war rimfire casing was taken apart to get the powder for firestarting, or is a fired casing, looked for a firing-pin's imprint on the rim. Important note: the Spencer Rifle's firing-pin was shaped more like a hammer than a pin, so you look for a flat crush-mark on a Spencer casing's rim, not a pin-mark (or regarding Henry casings, a bar-mark.)

Regarding Flyinryan2's "pierced" casing (or whatever it is):
I can't be sure from just the single photo whether it is a Spencer casing, or something else. As keen-eyed DCMatt mewntion, the slot in it does look "machine-punched." Notice that the slot seems to be perfectly centered in the object's base. Also, one end of the slot is square, and the other is rounded. A knife-stab would make a slot with a (narrow) V-shaped end. Flyinryan, are you sure the object is a bullet-casing? If it is, I can't think of a reason for putting the perfectly-centered, round-ended slot in it.

 

[flyinryan2]

DCMatt is right, soldiers used gunpowder from cqrtridges to start a campfire when rainstorms had drenched the available firewood. (That is why we dig so many "dropped" fire-melted Minie-balls in army campsites.) Getting the powder was simple if the soldiers had paper cartridges. If the cartridges were metal, you'd have to carefully remove the bullet, lest you set off the gunpowder. I mention all of that to set up my answer to DCMatt's question.

DCMatt wrote:
> Maybe they emptied the powder from these then puched the end to set off the prime?

The primer in civil war rimfire casings is located only in the rim. None was put in the center, because that isn't where the firing-pin hits the casing's base, so, putting primer in the center is wasteful.

To determine whether a civil war rimfire casing was taken apart to get the powder for firestarting, or is a fired casing, looked for a firing-pin's imprint on the rim. Important note: the Spencer Rifle's firing-pin was shaped more like a hammer than a pin, so you look for a flat crush-mark on a Spencer casing's rim, not a pin-mark (or regarding Henry casings, a bar-mark.)

Regarding Flyinryan2's "pierced" casing (or whatever it is):
I can't be sure from just the single photo whether it is a Spencer casing, or something else. As keen-eyed DCMatt mewntion, the slot in it does look "machine-punched." Notice that the slot seems to be perfectly centered in the object's base. Also, one end of the slot is square, and the other is rounded. A knife-stab would make a slot with a (narrow) V-shaped end. Flyinryan, are you sure the object is a bullet-casing? If it is, I can't think of a reason for putting the perfectly-centered, round-ended slot in it.

Here are some more pics, hope these can help! The slot is 3/8" long and a tad more then 1/16" wide. I've compared the "slot" Cartridge to a Full Complete Spencer.
Thank you so much for any help you can give!!!

 

[flyinryan2]

Thx TCG. Learned something today. I did not know they were rim fire only.

I'm curious if the hole is truely round at on end or if it has dirt in it to make it look round in the pic? I was trying to think of something that a soldier might have to punch such a hole. How about a rifle tool/screwdriver?

View attachment 733621 It would be the right size and might be sharp enough to punch thru without deforming the base. Just a thought... Of course I still have no idea why someone would do such a thing...

DCMatt

DCMatt,
Yes it is slightly rounder on one end and squarer on the other, the base is con-caved in just a little.
Was definitely something sharp, like that gun tool/screwdriver, or even like Cannonballguy said a knife!
Thanks guys!