Age of two buttons with lead filled back?

[Don in SJ]

I have two of these buttons that were found years ago, do not remember what type of sites and really am not sure of the era ofthese buttons.

The one button is flat(silver wash) but has a ridge around the back that allowed filling lead in for both weight and securing the shank, which I cannot make out exactly what type shank used. The other button(gilted) is very slightly domed, but basically the same, one seems gold gilt and one seems silver wash, perhaps they are even different in age.

So, any good ideas on the age of these buttons?

My rough guesstimate for now is 1780-1790's, but not sure I am in the ballpark or not.

Still looking thru Tice's book, but so far cannot find them but sure they are mentioned in there somewhere.

Don

 

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[Don in SJ]

I should add, I don't think they are rosettes, but maybe, not very big. But the one with the rust could be, if so my smallest one by far! Both are only .8 inch in diameter, approx 21.5mm. Out of my many rosettes the smallest is 1.5 inches, so nowhere near the size of even my smallest.

Don

 

[Silver Searcher]

Don...is the one on the left a crimped joint? if so they usually date to 18th- early 19th c the one on the right, I could only find a lead one similar(pie dish shape) which dated to 17thc

SS

 

[Don in SJ]

Not sure how the one on the left got the lip, I would think from being pressed into that shape, if that is what you mean by crimped. I wish I knew what type of site I found that at, but this is first time I am looking at them in probably more than a decade, so, could have come from mid 1700 to early 1900s site for all I know. The lead appears to have the ages look that all my older lead has, so I think perhaps no later than early 1800s, and still not positive the one is a button,the one with the rust. But just seems way too small for any type of rosette.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Not sure how the one on the left got the lip, I would think from being pressed into that shape, if that is what you mean by crimped. I wish I knew what type of site I found that at, but this is first time I am looking at them in probably more than a decade, so, could have come from mid 1700 to early 1900s site for all I know. The lead appears to have the ages look that all my older lead has, so I think perhaps no later than early 1800s, and still not positive the one is a button,the one with the rust. But just seems way too small for any type of rosette.

Yes...looks like the edge was crimped to hold the back in, but I think you are there abouts with the dates

SS

 

[Iron Patch]

I wonder if they were filled later. Curious if there's a backmark hiding under there.

 

[Don in SJ]

I wonder if they were filled later. Curious if there's a backmark hiding under there.

I don't think so, I just found in Tice's book(Pg 326) that there were German one piece cast buttons with solder filled backs in the 1700s, so I guess it is very possible that is close to what they are: "Silver colored , copper alloy buttons with concave backs filled with solder holding a wire shank. Some are two piece buttons where the iron back plate rusted away."

This is the closest I have come to IDing them, so standing by for any additional input. Not saying that is what these are but sure puts creditbility to them being buttons.....

Don

 

[Iron Patch]

I wonder if they were filled later. Curious if there's a backmark hiding under there.

I don't think so, I just found in Tice's book(Pg 326) that there were German one piece cast buttons with solder filled backs in the 1700s, so I guess it is very possible that is close to what they are: "Silver colored , copper alloy buttons with concave backs filled with solder holding a wire shank. Some are two piece buttons where the iron back plate rusted away."

This is the closest I have come to IDing them, so standing by for any additional input. Not saying that is what these are but sure puts creditbility to them being buttons.....

Don

It wouldn't surprise me if they are buttons. They're just not common ones.

 

[Brian(upstateNY-Central Fla.)]

Wow Don there is something thats hard for you too ID
Hope ya get a better idea the date range

 

[duggap]

Just my 2 cents worth, but they just might be off some of the leather straps from some of those fancy saddles. Particularly those straps that ran across the chest of the horse. That could put them back to the era you are talking about.

 

[Don in SJ]

Just my 2 cents worth, but they just might be off some of the leather straps from some of those fancy saddles. Particularly those straps that ran across the chest of the horse. That could put them back to the era you are talking about.

I think the one on the right might be horse related but not the one on the left, they are two entirely different items. If someone finds a photo of horse related covers like that, only 21 or 22mm in size than the right one might be solved. Like I said earlier, no rosettes I have and I have quite a few are anywhere near that small in diameter, but of course, always possible for small ones I guess.

The one on the right seems to have a long centered mark where something was, whereas the one of the left does not. I wish I could see more of the partial shank remaining on the left one, which I still consider a button.

 

[Woodland Detectors]

Possibly filled to be used as a gaming chip/token
It's just a guess
intriguing though

 

[CRUSADER]

If they are buttons, they are not consistant with British mass manufacture.

 

[thrillathahunt]

My 2 1/2 cents. The bottom pic looks like a rosette. I found one that was identified by a horse tack expert as a late 1600's to mid 1700's Spanish bridle rosette.... and the back of yours looks very similar. Like duggap has already said, possibly a strap decoration, or bridle reins decoration.

 

[Don in SJ]

Every Rosette I have ever found or seen is much bigger than these two relics, I already said my smallest rosette is 1.5 inches in diameter and these two are .8 of an inch. The one on the left has the remains of a wire type shank, whereas the one on the right looks more like a rectangle piece was in the lead/solder. It all appears to be same age, meaning I don't think the lead or solder was added at a later time. Also, I did find a description of German buttons, mention earlier in the post of existing like this.

I believe they are two entirely different relics, with the one on the left more button like and the one on the right more guide type hardware, but just a wag.

No biggie on these two, just happened to come across them while going through my old button finds.

Don

 

[Mike in Berks]

Don, sorry i can't help you with an ID on these. Just an observation here
And i'm sure you have noticed it already ......
Is what i have the arrow pointed at the remains of 2nd wire type shank ?
Or might it be where the one still there was connected to originally ?

 

[CRUSADER]

Don, sorry i can't help you with an ID on these. Just an observation here
And i'm sure you have noticed it already ......
Is what i have the arrow pointed at the remains of 2nd wire type shank ?
Or might it be where the one still there was connected to originally ?

 

[Iron Patch]

Don, sorry i can't help you with an ID on these. Just an observation here
And i'm sure you have noticed it already ......
Is what i have the arrow pointed at the remains of 2nd wire type shank ?
Or might it be where the one still there was connected to originally ?

I think it's part of the broken shank and evidence of being filled later... If I had to guess.