ACE 250 vs. Predator III (Newbie)

Get the ACE 250. Deeper, newer technology, better disc. and has proven the test of time.
 

Actually the Aces use early to mid-80's technology with add-on stops for different voltage increments. It's not new at all, and that's why they suffer so much for use in harsh or high iron soils. This means in lay terms that each place in the realms of discrimination for example, are registering a different (positive or negative) voltage, and a different impedence too. It also means that they have put a label on digital stops or increments instead of them being read on an analog meter. Digital readings though have been around since the early 70's, mostly found on early digital watches, those ones with the red letters..

This circuitry found in the Aces is almost the same earlier outdated phase-shift technology that the early to mid-80's Bounty Hunter Red Barons and White's 6db's used. The Aces are listed in Garrett's own informational charts as not being something to buy to search any salt beach. Here is the link where the info from Garrett is found - under "applications". http://www.garrett.com/hobby/techsupport/applications.htm

The Aces would however work so-so on freshwater beaches as long as the soil does not have too much iron in it. The Aces (all of them) will not and cannot differentiate between a nickel and most pulltabs, something that is spoken and written about frequently, but seems to be never mentioned when people try to sell them to unsuspecting customers. A teardrop sized stud earring may easily be passed up by any Ace ever made too, including up to the 550 series, because of it's older circuitry design. Aces handle weak or light in iron soil fairly well - but they have a real hard time with hot rocks and saline (salt) type soils, mostly because of the slower, older circuitry they house. This is EXACTLY why the Aces have a delay in their audio signal response, just as the earlier Red Barons and White's did.

The Predator III is not even as good as the Aces, it is the first of the Garretts attempt to capture and copy the first phase-shift technology introduced by George Payne into the White's 6db, 6000 db and later on in the Teknetics line of equipment, and later on improved by Compass Electronics - doing just enough work on it for it to work ok without fear of copyright infringements. All metal detector manufacturers borrow ideas from each other, it's not a new concept.

Later on the Aces were slightly improved but not by much. George left White's and started the Teknetics detector company just 13 miles from my home in Lebanon, Oregon around the year 1989. He was a very pleasant fellow and I was fortunate enough to get to cruise the Engineering section of his building. I used to work for a firm that did White's circuitboarding and R&D detector engineering back in the early 80's when the Aces type of circuitry was more popular. Later on I worked as a detector repairman for ten years - as a hobby, and before all that I worked in electronics engineering for the Department of Defense on the Mark 48 electronic and nuclear powered torpedo guidance and command control systems, some very elaborate and intricate electronic (classified) circuitry, MUCH more complicated than simple detector types..

The Aces are ok for casual use in moderate to mild soil, but technically speaking they lack a great deal. There are other detectors that would be a better bet, such as the White's Prizms, Classics, or the Fisher f-2, f-4, or the lower-priced Tesoros, even though those Tesoro models have no target ID meters.

Both the Aces and the Predators use very antiquated circuitry. The current F-2 and F-4 utilize much more more modern circuitry and that's why they can differentiate between pulltabs and nickels and the Aces cannot, and it's also why they can handle bad ground better too.

Have a nice day all.

EasyMoney
 

As the owner of many detectors and 30 years of detecting under my belt I can honestly say listen to Easymoney on this and get something besides the Ace 250 for beaches. I am a big Tesoro fan and would opt for a real beach machine if that's the type of hunting your going to do. If your going to mix it up, the machines that Easy mentioned are great, though I would add the Whites M6 to the list because it has an updated tracking system that handles beaches (salt) better than the rest that lets you scan from dry to wet and wet to dry with little complications.
 

Well said Tim.

I agree, and I would also include other models too but it appeared that he was looking mostly at the lower priced detectors.

EasyMoney
 

Thanks for the advice. I'll probably go with a White Classic 5ID in that case.. I'd rather pay a little more for quality.
 

Keep in mind HandyMan, that the Tesoro Silver uMax ($239) will go deeper than the Classic ID and the other detectors, especially with an 8X9 coil- save for the M6, which it will match or even beat sometimes. It will work well in a very wide variety of soils too, and almost as well as the M-6. You can even do a fair job of nugget hunting with it. And no, it doesn't have a meter, but an experienced detectorist seldom fools with one of those things after awhile anyway.

Note* Always try before you buy.

Easy MONEY
 

Handyman,
I wouldn't buy a Classic 5ID because that runs at the prizms frequency of 8.3 kHz. There is really no coil choices out there for it. I would buy a used Classic ID, IDX or IDX pro. These run at the standard 6.59 kHz of most Whites machines of present and past with tons of coil choices.

Easymoney,
So are you saying that the new Ace series ie 150 and 250 models are using the 80's technology? Or are you talking about the original Ace series? I have to say that I had a XLT, two M6's, Classic 3, Modified IDX, CM3900, Prizm 2 to name most of the Whites I can remember. I can say that depending on the ground, underlying and overlying trash, beaver tail, bent over or a lot of full tabs all these detectors can be easily fooled into showing a solid nickel. To just say new tech detectors "do" differentiate between a nickel and tab is false. The word "may" would be better. My recent M6's that I assume is new technology could hit a solid #20 and pinpoint coin sized and still be a tab. My Xterra 70 can say a solid #12 and pinpoint coin sized and still be a tab. (I know the Xterra is new technology). Not to mention the nickels I have recovered that read higher and lower on the TID scale. Nickels are just funny that way. I can say that with my Ace 250 my nickel to tab ratio is the same as my higher priced detectors. I really only have the higher priced detectors for salt beaches, gold prospecting and high mineralized ground. If the Ace 250 had adjustable ground balance I doubt I would need any other detector for coins and jewelry. Any other hunter's find this to be true or am I alone on this?
 

Khouse.

ALL the Aces incorporate the almost identical type of phase-shift delay circuitry of the early 80's lunchbox style Red Baron, it's electronic concept and principal invented by George Payne, but many people want to deny that because of many pseudo-logic false opinions that are floating around out there. In fact, the Ace 150 and 250 even incorporate the same old delayed audio originally found on the Red Baron. If anyone has used an Ace they immediately should know what I'm refering to. Yes, it is true that any detector can be fooled by a pulltab, but the Ace 100, 150, 250, 350, and 550 do not have a stop or a reference number that seperates any nickel/pulltabin any way.

To say that certain detectors "do" differentiate between them is "true" because the statement of; saying that women "do" drink coffee is "true" regardless of how many "do", or how many "don't". In fact, when people make such references they are suggesting, implying, and infering that the overwhelming majority of them do drink coffee, while the overwhelming minority of them don't. And this and the reference of my remarks about nickels/pulltab rejection is a "do" and "don't" situation too. I'ts really simple Phychology 101 stuff.

The F-s and F-4 do this 80% to 90% correctly numerically, and so do many higher priced machines. The MindBlob Explorers and Sovereigns as often as not are fooled and will not cancel many pulltabs no matter how hard one tries, and especially in the really harsh soils, and that's because they are working overtime trying to deal with too many tasks to do at the same time. It wouldn't matter if they had notch rejection or not, because of their inherent inability to handle the chore quite often. They have the most difficult time cancelling them simply because of their oh-so-slow sampling and processing circuitry proceedures.

Now if we care to talk about some really GOOD pulltab rejection let's talk about my cz-70. Sure it's no longer made, and yes it has a bit TOO much rejection built into it, but with it's dual freq it oftentimes has almost the same problem as the MindBlobs, a nickel reads like iron in the very worst of soils. And I'm talking about worse soil that the SE's II, and Sovs would ever be considered to be used in. Yes, the Fisher does a better job handling that soil over the Minelabs.

As far as nickels and TID numbers go the soil changes are what dictates the different changes in their value, because in air they always read the same value. The Aces however, do not have the more modern circuitry that allows them to handle bad ground as well as we would like them to. In fact, and I have stated this numerous times, and even written scrolls about it, the Garrett and Nautilus line of detectors have lurked in the past with their technology, being better designed for milder, less ironized, lower hot rock frequency types of soil found in most of the Eastern and Southern USA, and Central Europe. These companies have designed them primarily for this market, realizing that feeding the masses and leaving the fringes alone pays the bills and makes the money just as well as trying it any other way. This is why (again) that the Garrett 2000 and 2500 and the various Nautiluses get such wonderful depth in the east and S, USA, but not in high iron areas, and it's because they are designed that way. Here in the "far west" they actually really suck for depth and yell a lot because of all the hot rocks. In the last 20 years in Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Nevada and California I have only seen 5 Minelabs ( three in a pawnshop, two on a salt beach with their owners fooling with a lot of settings and swearing at them), zero Nautiluses, and two Garretts (both in a pawn shop) here, and it's because they suck in harsh soils. Conversely, I have seen hundreds of White's, Fishers, and Tesoros here, and they do quite well in spite of the harsh soil, and the Fishers handle it the best, although the high end Tesoros do have a bit of a problem ground balancing correctly.

As far as the Aces go (all of them), in mild soil or not, they have a real tough time finding gold stud jewelry, and so do the F-2's and F-4's. The White's Prisms and Classics however do as well as the Tesoro Compadre. Try locating a BB sized gold nugget with an Ace past 2 inches. That is almost funny. The same is true for the F-2 and F-4. The Tesoro Compadre, Whte's classics and Prisms find them at 3" and the Silver uMax finds them at 4".

EasyMoney
 

I say EasyMoney is right on the Ace i have a 250 and know what he is talking about.......Jim
 

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