ABOUT STATE PARK DETECTING ???

[mlhudson]

WHAT ARE THE VEIWS OF FELLOW T - NETTERS ON, BEING ALLOWED TO
METAL DETECTING IN AND AROUND THE PARK ? WHAT SHOULD BE OFF LIMITS AND NON - REGULATED AREAS ? SHOULD THEY ISSUE PERMITS ?
WHY DO THEY ALLOW BEACH HUNTING AND NOT PARKS ( LOCAL & STATE )
THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS , YOUR VOICE COULD CHANGE OUR HOBBY !

THANKS :
M L HUDSON

 

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[TheHarleyMan2]

I have the same issue and the city parks I inquired about here in Austin, Texas it is a no-no! I guess they are affraid of us digging big major holes, (in thier minds), but i think it is more of them worrying that one would not fill up the holes and leaving for some poor person to get hurt, or even yet, make the landscaping full of holes. I think it is stupid and irronic as even though we find trash, we dispose of it. Some parks outside of big city parks will allow detecting from what I found outside the city here in Austin. But I would check whatever park you are wanting to detect and give them a call and find what the law is. every park has thier regulations so to speak. I know here in Austin they are talking about passing a permit law to detect. Federal land and parks is also a no-no. My unit is at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio and every time I see the Quadrant that Geronimo was kept at and that was the first major fort of Texas while the Alamo was used as a stock house. It makes me think that there may be some lost gold coins and such in and around it as well as other artifacts, but again, federal property, no-no. It makes me sooooooo sad

 

[handy]

if they ISSUE PERMITS i would get one as long as the price is resonable

 

[BARGuy]

Well friends & neighbors...Chances are you'll find your local attorneys at the bottom of all this...It's a liability issue you know! The more rules they have, the more rule breakers to crucify. Not to mention the less chance of a liability suit if somebody stumbles into a clump of loose sod & breaks their pinky.

And, we've got a few in this hobby that figure they'll take what they want from a park & leave the rest, including holes, dug trash, etc. Oh, and a bad taste-in-the-mouth with the powers that be!

I don't have the answers. But, we volunteer at state parks all over the west & have been granted permission at places that have been off-limits since forever. How?...We have convinced the Park Managers of our intentions to leave his grounds better then we found them. Had one invite us back "anytime" because we picked up a bag of trash!

 

[Sandman]

Here in Michigan they have certain state parks that are open to metal detection and others are closed because someone found an artifact. Others that are open have restrictions on where you can detect like Picnic areas, Campgrounds, Beaches, Parking lots at boat launches and picnic areas. Neat huh, most of the parking lots are paved..............

If permits or licenses are issued, many more would be open for awhile till the slobs ruin it for everyone just like the game hunters have more lands removed from their use and they contribute tons of money into the economy.

 

[JOe L]

I believe , for the most part, all parks should be open to detecting. But, a free permit should be issued. I agree with the above, there is always someone who will ruin it for others. We have to be responsible and leave it as we found it.
I would not like to be visiting a park with my Granddaughter, which I don't have yet but hopefully will someday, and have her fall in a hole left by an uncaring MD'er.
So for that reason, I understand.
So is this a catch 22. I guess. I guess you can't issue a permit and follow every detector around making sure holes are filled.
Its a tough one.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Having been detecting since the 1970s, I have seen the whole thing "evolve", at least as it pertains to state-of-CA owned parks near me. Believe it or not, there was a time when the issue was never given a second thought. Bear in mind, things like ARPA (1979), and general "archaeological awareness" are fairly new things. We just never knew any better, and figured "parks are where you detect. Afterall, they're public, right?" If no one ever said anything, why would we have even thought to ask. Things were fine But then fast forward to the 1980s, and someone new says "I thought you couldn't detect at such & such?" Us dumb oldtimers would say "since when?" Turns out they'd gone and asked! Funny, but we'd never been bothered in full view of anyone and everyone. And from there it snow-balls: The continuous inquiries/attention only made rank-&-file parks persons "aware", since they had to root around in minutia to answer the inquiries. Yet before, never gave it a second thought when/if they'd seen someone previously. And you can see how this evolves

Another example, if you talk to guys who hunted civil war artifacts back in the early 1960s, with primitive BFO machines in the CW areas, they will often tell you that, back then, you could go to toe-curdling sites, like Shiloh, Ghettysburg, etc... and no one would pay you any mind. A detector was a novelty, and you were just looked at as an innocent odd-ball. But I venture to say, that even in the early 1960s, IF those same persons had asked enough questions of enough bureaucrats (after all, there were archies even back in those days), they'd probably have found out that technically, even back then, they'd have gotten a "no".

So quite honestly, here in CA, if I/we know of a state park that "no one cares", we don't rock that boat. Technically, I think there may be rules about "over 50 yr. old coins" and such nonsense. Heck, one archie even came and hassled a guy on a state BEACH here! A few persons on our local CA forum thought about "fighting that", but the conclusion was: "Right now, no one cares, except this one random event, so the BEST thing to do, is treat it as an exception, and NOT bring attention to ourselves" Ie.: "keep going and don't ask dumb questions"

 

[LI Tom]

Tom,you are 100% correct on this,sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

 

[greydigger]

I think that if I asked for a permit to ride a bicycle down main street
singing to folks, with a wardrobe made from tree bark I would be denied.
Or a large fee would be required.
I agree with previous sentiments.

Joe

(P.S. Bookings taken by my business manager.) LOL

 

[Silver Fox]

I have the same issue and the city parks I inquired about here in Austin, Texas it is a no-no! I guess they are affraid of us digging big major holes, (in thier minds), but i think it is more of them worrying that one would not fill up the holes and leaving for some poor person to get hurt, or even yet, make the landscaping full of holes. I think it is stupid and irronic as even though we find trash, we dispose of it. [snip]

I want to answer only a couple of your comments. Speaking for NYC parks, I don't think that there is a fear of digging big holes and not filling them up although the permit you get specifies that you are to use tools no larger than small gardening tools and to ensure that digging or probing in vegetated areas are erased upon completion. Then they add that no probing or digging is allowed in any ballfield, well-manicured lawns, woodlands, or in any areas with native vegetation.

However, baseball and football cleated shoes can tear up the soil all they want! As well as the few PEP (Parks Enforcement Patrol) never being around to catch and cite the owners of unleashed dogs that dig up the soil (I've seen 'em). The Parks Dept also has machines that drill and spit out approx. 6" round tubes of dirt leaving the area full of holes for aerating purposes. On top of that, you and others think that you are doing a good deed by accumulating and disposing of retrieved pull tabs, screw caps, and all sort of garbage when in reality no one in the Parks Dept gives a hoot about your consideration 'cause if they would they would try to minimize the discarding of these products and there's no way they can. All you see are some employees with a pole that has a nail attached at one end and they walk around spearing loose paper items. NO EMPLOYEE has ever done anything about the trash we find. Out of sight, out of mind.

What I find strange is that the City of New York Parks & Recreation allows metal detecting (with the restritctions) in some parks and not in all. I'm trying to find out from the lady that processed and sent me my permit what is the process where certain parks are okayed and others are not. Who and how: who does the selecting and how are parks selected for metal detecting. I'd love to be able to detect in Central Park, a gold/silver mine and I have no concept as to why it's not allowed. They allow detecting in Prospect Park (in Brooklyn) which is a brother to Central Park and they don't seem to be concerned about this dichotomy.

Our desires are not their concern, sometimes in some cities.

SF

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey SF, do tell: What do the md'ing old-timers say about what type of daily finds they'd make in NY's Central park back in .... say the 1960s or 70s? Was it red-hot when the first motion detectors hit the market in the very late 1970s/early 80s? What was a typical day's take on silver coins out of Central Park back in those days?

As far as trying to find out why some parks are OK, and other parks are supposedly off-limits there, I'd be careful. They may just make ALL the parks off-limits. This is exactly what happened in a mid-western state years ago: An md'r routinely detected at a state park near him, and was never bothered. One day, a ranger whom he'd always seen around before, with nothing other than a friendly wave, boots him! He says "why?" The ranger answered "because it's not allowed", and would not cooperate further. So the hunter sets out to do his own research, and finds out that the state law was silent on the issue. Ie.: nothing said either way. While doing this research, he discovered that his neighboring state actually had wording ALLOWING detecting at their state parks (at least beaches and non-historic monuments anyhow). The guy thought "wouldn't it be cool if our state had that wording too, so it's not left up to the whims of individual parks here?" So he set about petitioning his state park's to the highest levels. In the end, a memo went out to all the state parks, that m'ding was no longer allowed at any parks. It was now "on the books" and not silent on the issue. Guess who the memo was signed by? The very person at the head of the state parks he'd been petitioning! He could only assume that his pressure had actually done the opposite, to cause them to address this "pressing issue". So ..... I'd be careful with trying to get answers for the disparity in NY, as odd and unfair as it is.

 

[Silver Fox]

Hey SF, do tell: What do the md'ing old-timers say about what type of daily finds they'd make in NY's Central park back in .... say the 1960s or 70s? Was it red-hot when the first motion detectors hit the market in the very late 1970s/early 80s? What was a typical day's take on silver coins out of Central Park back in those days?

As far as trying to find out why some parks are OK, and other parks are supposedly off-limits there, I'd be careful. They may just make ALL the parks off-limits. This is exactly what happened in a mid-western state years ago: An md'r routinely detected at a state park near him, and was never bothered. One day, a ranger whom he'd always seen around before, with nothing other than a friendly wave, boots him! He says "why?" The ranger answered "because it's not allowed", and would not cooperate further. So the hunter sets out to do his own research, and finds out that the state law was silent on the issue. Ie.: nothing said either way. While doing this research, he discovered that his neighboring state actually had wording ALLOWING detecting at their state parks (at least beaches and non-historic monuments anyhow). The guy thought "wouldn't it be cool if our state had that wording too, so it's not left up to the whims of individual parks here?" So he set about petitioning his state park's to the highest levels. In the end, a memo went out to all the state parks, that m'ding was no longer allowed at any parks. It was now "on the books" and not silent on the issue. Guess who the memo was signed by? The very person at the head of the state parks he'd been petitioning! He could only assume that his pressure had actually done the opposite, to cause them to address this "pressing issue". So ..... I'd be careful with trying to get answers for the disparity in NY, as odd and unfair as it is.

Very interesting and informative reply, thanks. I don't know much about the history of detecting in Central Park or any other city park. But, it HAD to be super-productive if I did very good in the 1980s and into the early 2000s. The difference between the '60s, '70s and now is that then the park was not as well maintained as it is now. One thing you notice now is the many crews around the park doing huge work. For instance, part of the main lake is presently drained. Further uptown there are many mountains of soils, etc. The Great Lawn is off limits to crowds and certain events because it's been re-covered with grass. So the park is greener. I don't know how much maintenance is being done at the other parks in the 5 boroughs.

If you see the movie "GOSPELL" from 1973 (If I'm remembering correctly), there are scenes in Sheep Meadow a photo of which I've posted with thousands of sunbathers, you can see dust storms sweeping in the background. The grass had disappeared with all of the action of the players, running, frisbieing, etc. So, the coins, etc., were so easily accessible it was paradise. But even after the lawn started to be repaired with a carpet of grass I still found many clad coins, silver coins, old coins, gold and silver jewelry. I didn't cover every inch so there is still a ton to be found.

Once in a while, after a real hard rain I'll walk in the park and go up the hills scanning the ground and pick up Mercs, Barbers. I once even found a 5-sided, teal blue, 1848 soda bottle sticking out of a slight hill. I thought it was going to be just the neck but the whole thing came out and it was valued at $200-$250. I sold it, of course.

Possibly what happened with that mid-western state park situation is that probably a zealous archaeologist (and his organization buddies) got involved behind the scenes and was instrumental in getting the powers that be to end detecting. Just a consideration that is more likely to happen with wild state parks than city parks.

SF

 

[deepskyal]

I'd love to detect Point State Park in Pittsburgh. Detecting is off limits because it is the site of Fort Pitt.

But, they continue to "update" the park, constantly driving through and tearing up the grassy areas, filling in the old trenches, having festivals and public events that do more damage than anyone could possibly concieve.
Right now they are filling in what was left of the trenches that were part of the fort so they can have more "public event" area.

I can only imagine the coins that sit in that park. What possible historic significance can remain after they've redone that park over and over and over.

Look at the old pic's of Point State Park. At one time it was part of the city and had bridges leading to it. Now it's a park and we can't detect it?

I'd pay a small fee for a permit to detect it and similar parks if they had something available instead of getting a flat out no.

There's no historic relics left there. They have the "rebuilt replica" of the old block house that serves as a museum...that's it. There's nothing original left there.

Al

 

[stanjam]

Personally, I think there can and should be a happy medium here.

Say a state issued permit, costing $10-20 that would allow one to detect on any state park. On that permit will be posted the rules for all MD'ers to follow. Included in these rules should be the ethical guidelines of detecting. Also they can put in some stuff to protect the archs: The MD'er agrees to not dig in any ongoing archaeological site. If the MD'er finds anything of significant archaeological significance, or a new site, he or she will report it. The MD'er will record all relic finds of over 100 years in age, and the state may buy these finds from the MD'er if they are so interested, at the going rate for such artifact.

 

[mlhudson]

THAT'S THE CONCEPT I WAS GOING FOR, SOUNDS LIKE YOU PUT SOME THOUGHT IN TO IT.THAKS FOR YOUR VEIW

THANKS:
M L HUDSON

 

[Silver Fox]

Personally, I think there can and should be a happy medium here.

Say a state issued permit, costing $10-20 that would allow one to detect on any state park. On that permit will be posted the rules for all MD'ers to follow. Included in these rules should be the ethical guidelines of detecting. Also they can put in some stuff to protect the archs: The MD'er agrees to not dig in any ongoing archaeological site. If the MD'er finds anything of significant archaeological significance, or a new site, he or she will report it. The MD'er will record all relic finds of over 100 years in age, and the state may buy these finds from the MD'er if they are so interested, at the going rate for such artifact.

Nah, it's just another romantic fantasy. Even though MLHUDSON agrees with you ("THAT'S THE CONCEPT I WAS GOING FOR, SOUNDS LIKE YOU PUT SOME THOUGHT IN TO IT.THAKS FOR YOUR VEIW THANKS: M L HUDSON"), I don't.

Archaeologists do NOT need protection, they're a powerful lobby and the last thing they need is support from THers. It'll always be them vs. us, with the usual exceptions, and us being on the losing end. What should happen from an ideal viewpoint is that archaeologists should look for whatever is in the ground that they think might help them in presenting a visual history. This ain't going to happen because if there is one thing that the archs have is tons of stuff hidden away in tons of drawers that they're never going to get to because they have their hands in too many pies, and it's stuff that the public will never get to see and appreciate. It's the same as being left in the ground.

While in England the responsible agency mates the finder of treasure with a museum that, if interested, will offer a fair market value. If you think that could ever happen in the good ol' USA, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee. The gov't would have to establish agencies, departments, what have you, to handle such. And you know where our gov't's head is at, at the moment. Actually, the archs are powerful enough to negate any effort towards that and what will result is possibly legislation forcing us to turn in whatever we find of what could be construed as a historical artifact, even though they may have thousands of the same thing stuck away in those Indiana Jones warehouses.

The only thing I can think of making friends with the local State Park Ranger or whatever authority, educating them about the hobby, mentioning that archs do not need any more stuff to store, and that you'll always leave the area the same as you found it so no one discovers bad evident digs and reports it to someone who may have an ax to grind.

Otherwise, dream on and don't keep wishing that you could do something that you know exists only in dreams. THAT is the reality of the situation and only a miracle can make it a reality.

And don't find and declare dinosaur bones, THEN you'll really be up the creek!

SF

 

[mlhudson]

as with some sites across the USA , like little bighorn, gettysburg, jamestown.i'm sure
you heard of these places. they were using metal detectors to preform archeaology
digs while excavating the sites. to my knowledge they still use detectors to locate potinntal sites for further study, we contribute to this for this reason alone.
"" preservation of history "" thought the art of metal detection....we help my than
you will ever know. because of this hobby , sites that would have been demolished
in the past, now stands because someone took the time to investigate and research.
we've already been working togather for a unitied collective with archeaologist, some
even use detectors them selves.

 

[Silver Fox]

as with some sites across the USA , like little bighorn, gettysburg, jamestown.i'm sure
you heard of these places. they were using metal detectors to preform archeaology
digs while excavating the sites. to my knowledge they still use detectors to locate potinntal sites for further study, we contribute to this for this reason alone.
"" preservation of history "" thought the art of metal detection....we help my than
you will ever know. because of this hobby , sites that would have been demolished
in the past, now stands because someone took the time to investigate and research.
we've already been working togather for a unitied collective with archeaologist, some
even use detectors them selves.

Little Big Horn is another archaeological site where metal detectors were/are used to find bulltes, etc., so they can see the pattern of the fight. But the detectorists just detect, they don't dig. They get a signal and plant a little flag and someone comes along and does the digging. "WE" don't contribute except for a rare occasion where a detecting club is asked to cooperate.

In Staten Island is an MDing club whose members dig for history, not keeping what they find. But that is a volunteering club.

Archaeologists use detectors 'cause it's just another tool. The fact that there are thousands who have no connection to archaeology and just detect for fun is of no concern to them until you find yourself in a location that could hold historical artifacts that THEY want, so that they can "re-bury" them in vast warehouses.

I'm not anti-archaeology, I'm anti-archaeologists (but not ALL of them, just the ones that appear on TV or in the media sounding like they were left in charge of the world.
F***'em!

SF

 

[Gilligan]

I pay taxes and should be able to detect. I got nailed at a park outside of Raleigh, NC for detecting where the water WAS. The lake level had dropped about 75' from the normal water line at the swimming area and was told that it was against park policy to detect. Crazy. It is going to be covered up anyway. The park rules sign says you may not remove any artifact, plant or animal from the park. I told him that I was not doing any of these things. He did not go for it.

 

[Silver Fox]

I pay taxes and should be able to detect. I got nailed at a park outside of Raleigh, NC for detecting where the water WAS. The lake level had dropped about 75' from the normal water line at the swimming area and was told that it was against park policy to detect. Crazy. It is going to be covered up anyway. The park rules sign says you may not remove any artifact, plant or animal from the park. I told him that I was not doing any of these things. He did not go for it.

The problem is not and has never been the enforcers, they just have a job to do. Although some are more "human" than others and will give you a break. The problem is what they have to enforce which is written in stone and sometimes not even an act of Congress will replace the edict/rule/regulation/law, whatever. Even those that "represent" you will fail in passing any anti- laws. The laws are here for the duration and it's better if we forget about those lands, regardless of what they may hold buried out of sight, that are not open to the public for the activity we enjoy so much.