? about Bannerstones

[Shemanese]

Or Atlatl (sp?) weights. I've seen some beautiful ones with holes in them. But were there any that didn't have holes? That maybe were loosely lashed on and slid on a cutout or groove? Maybe I just don't comprehend the way the Atlatl works. Thot I saw pics that had ones without holes. Thanks

 

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[jeff a]

some were simple bars shaped stones,ive seen a few wing banners that were grooved

 

[jeff a]

the piece to the far right came off an early archaic site i hunt, its a bar weight,some are crude and some are polished some are grooved

 

[luckyinkentucky]

The ones without the holes were called loaf stones. At least that's what they believe them to be.

 

[jeff a]

bar weights are early archaic ,loaf stones are late archiac to early woodland,bar weights were the first atlatl design,they think loaf stones were the last design,the design went full circle,good reads on these are knoblocks bannerstone book and ohio slate types by converse

 

[luckyinkentucky]

bar weights are early archaic ,loaf stones are late archiac to early woodland,bar weights were the first atlatl design,they think loaf stones were the last design,the design went full circle,good reads on these are knoblocks bannerstone book and ohio slate types by converse

Doesn't Knoblock's banner book go for around $600 today? I haven't been able to get my hands on one for this reason alone.

 

[jeff a]

http://www.gustavslibrary.com/bannerstones.htm
this is where i got mine ,he reprints alot of the good books

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I know it's the consensus that Bannerstones were used as Atl-Atl weights, but personally I just don't see it. I can't see an Indian working his rearend off for who knows how long it took to make some of these elaborate Banners like the Notched Ovate, some of the Winged types, the Hourglass and Bow Tie types made of exotic materials like Rose Quartz and then just stick them on an Atl-Atl to be used as a weight when a simple flat rock tied to the Atl-Atl would suffice. These items were obviously not easy to make and probably took weeks or months of pecking, grinding, drilling, and polishing to get the final product and then to just use it as a weight. I just can't fathom that.

I believe there has only been one Banner ever found in context with an Atl-Atl and even then it was never proven that they actually went together since they were found in the same grave but not near each other.

I always figured these were status symbols used in their elaborate ceremonies as they paraded through.

 

[archaeon]

i have never liked the atlatl theory either. you think there would be more of them if they were a common hunting implement. they could have gone on wooden pipe stems for decoration...just one idea. until we find one attached to an atlatl we will never know....have any ever been found attached?

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Not that I have ever heard about. The one I mentioned above was found in the same grave as an Atl-Atl and therefore the assumption was made that they went together.

This is what on Wikipedia.

Bannerstones are artifacts usually found in the Eastern United States that are characterized by a centered hole in a symmetrically shaped carved or ground stone. The holes are typically ¼” to ¾” in diameter and extend through a raised portion centered in the stone. They usually are bored all the way through but some have been found with holes that extend only part of the way through. Many are made from banded slate or other interestingly colored hard stone. They often have a “wing nut” or “butterfly” shape but are not limited to these.

Archaeologists have agonized for a long time over the use of banner stones. Some have offered that they are atlatl weights or ceremonial pieces. Others have suggested that they are for drilling, cordage making, or fire making. Robert S. Berg’s theory proposed that they are part of a kit of tools used to make and repair atlatl darts. Berg’s theory has met with a lot of skepticism and resistance because of the previous works of William S. Webb, who proposed that the bannerstone was actually part of an atlatl. Webb cited “in situ” evidence which consisted mainly of bannerstones found in line with atlatl handles and hooks in graves that archaeologist dug up during the construction of the Tennessee Valley Authority’s massive water control system in the southeast during the early part of the 20th Century.

Here's an interesting article on the Atl-Atl and the Bannerstone

http://www.webdyer.com/artifacts_fossils/assorted_pages/atlatl.htm

 

[relix]

I agree with Dorkfish. I have never been able to accept that bannerstones were used as atl-atl weights. I hope I do not draw much fire from this remark, but early Native Americans simply weren't an artistic people. I believe them to be a people that were very spiritual yet simple. I understand that some of the finest stone chipped artifacts came from this period. That is without question. I believe that the bannerstone was introduced much later than popular belief. The artistic / effigy forms are believed to have came into the picture around the late archaic-woodland period. I believe that bannerstones also came on the scene around this time. Archeologists aren't always the ones that uncover the greatest finds. The Great Spiro Mounds were actually first discovered by simple artifact enthusiasts. They were giving an expo recently in my area where a University was giving a lecture about Mississippian era mounds and artifacts recovered in them. People were encouraged to bring personal finds and they were to identify and explain the use of those artifacts. I had a couple of pieces in question that I wasn't quite sure of their use. I found these items along with an immaculate celt that was just over 7 inches while digging a shelter. I am very careful and document everything I find. When I showed my items they claimed the notched items were most likely from the archaic period while the celt was from the woodland period. These items were found within 2 feet and at the exact same depth as the celt along with a fire pit. I didn't want to call them out on this but I knew all along that they didn't know what they were studying. By telling this, I am trying to show that the rituals and uses of items by the Native American Indian has and most likely, always will be a mystery. A mystery that will always be fun to try to solve. Happy hunting.

 

[Shemanese]

Thanks for the links. I looked on You-Tube for videos of use and did not see any with bannerstones. Did they slide as it was thrown?Loosely tied on if it had no hole? The pics on the sites had atl-atl's but no bannerstones with them. Sometimes I just don't get it.

 

[Kneedeep]

Thanks for the links. I looked on You-Tube for videos of use and did not see any with bannerstones. Did they slide as it was thrown?Loosely tied on if it had no hole? The pics on the sites had atl-atl's but no bannerstones with them. Sometimes I just don't get it.

In one of Morrehead's books (problematic, decorative & ornamental stones) said Bannerstones were problematic because they were not understood for there use. So you are not alone.