A What is it and Why is it - I just dont get it

[BioProfessor]

A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

I have been hunting a place that has REALLY weird soil. It is a very old site - 17th century - for us on this side of the pond. I dig musket balls in certain areas and they are coated with a brown almost rusty surface. Underneath, they have the "correct" smooth and tan patina. Most have been holed to use as fishing sinkers or seine weights.

There are, however, some that just make no sense. I know there was a house/building that burned in the area but lead usually just melts and I find rough blobs. But I am finding ones in this site - not in the burn area - and the lead is very brittle and crumbles when I try to clean off the crud. Brittle lead? I don't get it.

Any help understanding this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Daryl

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

Cannot tell the size - could be horn balls.

B

 

[THing4CSA]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

Hi My Fellow TH'ers
It could be that the lead was attacked with fertilizers or something in the ground or in the water. It might also be that what you have is zinc and not lead. I found a counterfeiters mold for a King George the 1st or 2nd that felt like lead but had the peel and crack look as your weights have. I would guess that those are made of zinc and not lead.

Just my guess as I don't know how you would test to see what they are really made of. Maybe someone on here will know of a test that will remove all doubt for you.
Great finds either way.
Dave
'Digger-Dave'
THing4CSA
PS: Remember; Don't leave it in the ground!

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

Sorry for no scale reference. The "normal" musket ball at the bottom is about a .50 caliber ball holed for a weight.

What is a horn ball?

I have found counterfeit coins in the UK and I know what you mean. Just not sure why somebody would make a "fake" musket ball. So may be it is NOT lead or a musket ball and what ever is "attacking" and coating the lead is doing this to the material.

The one thing that is strange/different about it is that the hole in the dark one seems to be pretty well defined and looks almost machine made or molded that way. Much better than a soldier would do making a sinker or a seine weight.

Thanks!

Daryl

 

[Digger54]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

They look like old net weights. Something in the soil is breaking them down. Would assume heavy ground salts.

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

I think so too but I have just never seen anything make lead brittle.

Were old net weight ever made of pewter? They are brittle and flaky like pewter is when it has been in the ground for a couple of hundred years.

Thanks!

Daryl

 

[ivan salis]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

you say yourself that the soil there is "weird" -- so most likely its has chemical issues in the soil that is messing with the balls -- horn balls are metal balls put upon cow horns to prevent them from goring folks or pne another.

red / browmish colors normally tend to mean the soil is iron rich

zinc as it breaks down become brittle and flaky --it is similar looking to lead and is a cheap metal often used to make counterfiet coins and such .

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

I totally agree. I've just never seen lead do this and was wondering if anybody else had seen this happen to lead.

Were horn balls this small? Any idea what they were made of?

Thanks for the help.

Daryl

 

[ivan salis]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

might be a pewter mixture thats high in zinc content -pewter is a lead based alloy of several diferant cheap metals of which zinc is one of them --the zinc level in the mixture could have been too high -- zinc & lead are cheap metals or in the case of pewter (metal blend)

oxen and cow horn (anti goring) balls varied in size (same as the cows horns and cows) and make up ( normally home made ones were soft metals --later on there were store made' copper hollow sort of mushroom shaped ones that one could buy)

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

BioProfessor wrote:
> I think so too but I have just never seen anything make lead brittle.

Careful studies of relic Metallurgy indicate BioProfessor is correct. The "brittle" balls are not made of lead.

Often, the identity of an "uncertain" excavated metal can be deduced by observing the characteristics of the oxidation/corrosion on it. Examine not only the color, but also the texture, and the form of the oxidation/corrosion. You will notice that typically, lead and pewter and zinc and solder do not oxidize/corrode the same way. For example, we now know that the filler-metal in US Oval buckles, boxplates, and breastplates, despite diggers-&-collectors commonly calling them "lead-filled," actually is not lead ...it is a solder-like alloy.

Zinc corrosion is characterized by "craters" (except when the zinc was found in direct contact with a large mass of iron). There are no "craters" on the "brittle" balls found by BioProfessor. The oxidation/corosion characteristics of the "brittle" balls show they are made of pewter - or an alloy very similar to pewter.

Somewhere in my computer I've got a list of the metallugical contents of Historical pewter, which often contained a significant amount of lead. In the Modern era, the use of lead in pewter has been banned.

 

[l.cutler]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

They might just be made from the lead at the top of the melting pot, all of the impurities and lighter metals go to the top. Fifty caliber is too smal to be a musketball, most likely rifle balls or purposely made for fishing weights.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

yep even in a pot of melted lead there are differant levels for differant uses * -- the weaker stuff thats less pure would be at the top with the better grade lead at the bottom -- use top softer "junk" lead for something like fishing weights & bottom "harder" better quality lead for bullets and such

pewter is a metal that varied a great deal accourding to who made it and for what purpose it was being put to -- some folks were much better metal alloy makers than others --- zinc is a brittle metal --if one puts too much zinc in a batch of pewter it can make the lead (pewter actually) seem brittle but its really just the zinc within the pewter mixture that is brittle.

people of todays era see so little pewter that most all folks think pewter items are made of lead * which is a major part of the pewter blend.

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

Thanks guys. Now we are getting somewhere.

The musket/rifle ball in the picture was just a reference. It is .55 caliber as measured. Sorry about that.

I would say that the "brittle" ball on the right is about the same size and the one on the left is a bit bigger. The holes are not the same size but do seem to be cast as they are very uniform and straight.

I agree that they act like pewter that has been in the ground for a long time. So that begs the question as to what pewter balls with holes would be used for and when would they have been made? Were they commercially available?

I have found pewter fork and spoon handles as well as some pewter buttons in the same area.

Are we talking 17th or 18th century or both?

My first time with pewter balls.

Thanks again.

Daryl

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

I found an article on the history of pewter at ehow.com. The article said:

Interesting Facts:
- During the American Revolution, many pewter pieces were surrendered to smelters to be melted down and made into musket balls.

I guess if they could make musket balls, they could make seine weight??

Daryl

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

And then I find this:

Since we’re already on the subject of deadly pewter . . . what about pewter bullets?

Bullet molds were intended to make lead bullets, but “in a pinch,” says Colonial Williamsburg gunsmith Richard Sullivan, “you could use pewter even though it would be inferior to lead. But I know of no accounts of such a practice.” Neither did two other Williamsburg gunsmiths I asked.

I’ve read a few secondary sources that mention this practice as having occurred during the Revolutionary War, but these have been old publications (like the book on Nathan Hale from 1915), where the statement isn’t documented, or family genealogies, where the author repeats family lore, again, without documentation. It’s easy to repeat stories, harder to find one that points to proof in the form of a primary source.

With bullets, heavier is better. Pewter would work—heck, aluminum foil would work—but pewter is mostly tin with a small amount of another metal, sometimes lead but not always. Imagine the power of a tin bullet . . . it wouldn’t go as far as a lead one, would lose speed more quickly, and wouldn’t have the energy when it struck. In dire circumstances, melting down one’s pewter plates might have provided ammunition that was better than nothing, but the practice could hardly have been widespread. Even though it might have occurred on rare occasion, the statement makes it sound commonplace, and so must be judged a myth.

Oh well. The mystery continues.

Daryl

 

[Rattlesnake Joe]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

Say you don't suppose these were used as wahpum. Maybe these are beads given to the Indians way back when in exchange for Gold and their land? The early trade beads were very primative I understand?

 

[Zephyr]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

Everything you ever wanted to know about "lead rot":

http://www.dt.navy.mil/cnsm/lead_01.html

(Acetic acid works on it fast)

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

I found an article on the history of pewter at ehow.com. The article said:

Interesting Facts:
- During the American Revolution, many pewter pieces were surrendered to smelters to be melted down and made into musket balls.

I guess if they could make musket balls, they could make seine weight??

Daryl

I think you might be missing the obvious. Probably made as fishing weights so the fact they're pewter didn't matter. That being said I do know solid ones exist because I've held them in my hand, and have always wondered about them. I have never found one here so if it is lead decay it must be some nasty ground.

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

I just can't get it through my thick head why somebody would have the knowledge and take the time to carefully mix tin (85-99%), bit of copper, antimony, bismuth, and lead to make pewter when they could have just melted lead.

As far a wahpum, I did find some Padre Blue trade beads in the same area.

I'm not sure the story fits yet.

Daryl

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: A What is it and Why is it - I just don't get it

Throughout the past several thousand years, metal-casters have recycled un-needed or broken metal objects, by tossing them into the melting-pot. Especially when they were casting a new object which didn't require "purity" or a high-quality metal alloy, junk/scap metal was used, because it was cheap. An example of that is the Confederate "salvaged lead" bullets ...whose lead is so impure it doesn't develop the commonly-seen white lead-oxide patina.

High purity or quality isn't important for net-weights. So it's quite reasonable to suspect BioProfessor's "brittle" net-weights are are made from melted-down scraps of broken pewter and junk lead. Pewter contains a high percentage (usually no less than 65%) of tin, a very brittle metal, especially when it corrodes. That's what I think explains the multiple tiny cracking we see on some of BioProfessor's net-weights.