A New Treasure Hunting Proposal In The House?...........POLL

[treasurejack]

Let's assume a new Recreational Treasure Hunting proposal is in the house that would open all public lands to recreational treasure hunters. Part of the bill would require an annual permit/fee, say $50. The other part of the bill would allow the treasure hunter a percentage of any found treasure's current market value, but the only thing slowing this bill down is the establishing of the treasure hunter's agreed market percentage. If this were an actual proposed change, what percentage would you be willing to accept in order to see this bill passed?

 

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[jeff of pa]

Where is 99.9999999999999% ?

 

[buscadero]

Even considering that they were PUBLIC LANDS in the 1st Place, I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and agree to a 50/50 split! Something along the lines of the English system of Treasure Trove!

HH Joe

 

[Hoosier Kingfisher]

Ditto Buscadero

 

[treasurejack]

Where is 99.9999999999999% ?

lol....it's Uncle Sam.....I twisted his arm just so he'd let me post the 20,30,40,50%!

(This should be an interesting poll?)

 

[treasurejack]

Even considering that they were PUBLIC LANDS in the 1st Place, I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and agree to a 50/50 split! Something along the lines of the English system of Treasure Trove!

HH Joe

That's exactly what prompted me to do this poll.

 

[ghosthunter]

For every bill the (sic) Gov. would introduce, there would be 50 more to place the original bill in their favor. It's a loose, loose situation. You would do all the work,they would take everything you found..It's not worth it.............

 

[jeff of pa]

I figure if I find a Chest with a Billion in it,
Till they took the Taxes out,
I'd consider letting them have the Chest yet.



All joking aside.
You know me, I just paid $100.00 for an All access Permit.
IF I would have had to share a % on top of that,
I probably would have
agreed to it. But it would have been a Small %.

And on what your asking, Taxes would be a Big Consideration on the Percentage, I'd agree to.

 

[treasurejack]

I figure if I find a Chest with a Billion in it,
Till they took the Taxes out,
I'd consider letting them have the Chest yet.



All joking aside.
You know me, I just paid $100.00 for an All access Permit.
IF I would have had to share a % on top of that,
I probably would have
agreed to it. But it would have been a Small %.

And on what your asking, Taxes would be a Big Consideration on the Percentage, I'd agree to.

Jeff,

Then consider something like this perhaps?
Let's say we are given a tax option at the end of each year, for a $1000 tax donation to say, "The New Federal Lands Fund", you will retain the right to treasure hunt on all federally governed lands, annual permit and regs arriving in the mail. Now if 100,000 people opt to do this each year (I would) that's 10 million tax dollars in additional resources for our public lands, all of it up front. Now toss in the percentages we are polling here and together they could generate a great deal of revenue towards the preserving of our public lands. With such a system in place, each year the government has a surplus of Federal Land tax dollars up front that it can then use to "buy any archaeologically significant" discovery that it deems to be of public or historical value. At 20%, a 1 million dollar discovery would cost the fund $200'000.00, which if they purchased it, would be "tax free" to you because you opted to enter the program during the prior tax season. In the long run, the archies get what they want (Funding & discoveries), Uncle Sam gets what he wants (Free tax dollars), and the treasure hunter gets what he wants (legal access and the potential of legal profit.) I think something like this could work. What do you think?

 

[TreasureTales]

I'm not paying for a permit because that is just another tax. I'm not paying any taxes because I did the work. I'd be willing to declare what I find on PUBLIC LAND only if I could sell it to a buyer at fair market value and then be taxed appropriately on my additional "income."

I am sick to death of permits, taxes, and government control of the public lands. Those are our lands and as long as we treat them with some semblence of respect we should have access to them. Permits are a way of asking for the government's permission to do something. While in fact the government should be asking for our permission to do something.

Boys and girls, things are bass ackwards. Don't fall for a permit system and a tax system.

Treasurejack I understand what you're saying, I just think we've too long been programmed to ask permission instead of to give it.

 

[treasurejack]

I'm not paying for a permit because that is just another tax. I'm not paying any taxes because I did the work. I'd be willing to declare what I find on PUBLIC LAND only if I could sell it to a buyer at fair market value and then be taxed appropriately on my additional "income."

I am sick to death of permits, taxes, and government control of the public lands. Those are our lands and as long as we treat them with some semblence of respect we should have access to them. Permits are a way of asking for the government's permission to do something. While in fact the government should be asking for our permission to do something.

Boys and girls, things are bass ackwards. Don't fall for a permit system and a tax system.

Treasurejack I understand what you're saying, I just think we've too long been programmed to ask permission instead of to give it.

TT, I can't argue your point, but we all know the government isn't going give up anything, so why not rethink things a bit and try to forge a solution that might allow us to get some of what we've lost back? At present the general government mindset is that anything on public lands should belong to everyone because everyone pays taxes, even the guy who doesn't treasure hunt, and sadly there are more of them then there is of us. This government mindset presents a very strong argument against our hobby and our gaining access to these lands. The hobbies of hunting and fishing generate a lot of income to the various state and federal land management agencies, so they are likewise accommodated, but treasure hunting? So why not feed the system what it wants in order to gain more, "financial notice?" Permits generate dollars and that system is never going away, like it or not.

 

[jeff of pa]

IF it were all Federal land including
All Protected Sites Yes.

But, it would have to be through the Federal Government
No Archeological input at all.
IF they wish to Buy ; or a Museum wishes to buy at fair
market Value Fine.
but to do the work, after Paying to do the work,
I wouldn't want someone who is paid to sit back & watch
decide, the Particular piece of land I decided to work,
is producing more then I deserve & shut me down.

I hope what I said isn't tooooooooo Confusing :P

Let's just say I trust the Federal Government
fruther then I would trust someone straight out of
College who has been taught that they own everything
that is cool & underground.

 

[TreasureTales]

TJ, I disagree with your statement "....the general government mindset is that anything on public lands should belong to everyone because everyone pays taxes....."

1) Not everyone pays taxes, yet everyone is allowed on public lands with few exceptions, and providing the current laws are obeyed. Even foreigners are permitted on our public lands, and they never pay a dime in US taxes.

2) Not all things are prevented from being removed for the good of all, as you imply. Rocks, minerals, fossils, game & fish, and trash can currently be removed from many federally administered public lands without paying a federal fee and often without need of a federal permit. (Hunting and fishing permits/licenses are sold by the states.) Why are those things legally removed and not treasure?

I personally know two people who run small rock shops. One lives in California and one is in Oregon. Those people collect rocks, minerals, fossils from OUR lands and sell them for a profit in their shops. No permits and no fees. I'm not advocating THEY should have to buy permits, I am advocating that since they can do it, why can't we?

If I were to have a mechanized piece of heavy equipment come into a national forest and move tons of earth with it in order to look for treasure, I can see where a set of restrictions and a permitting system would be necessary. But for the average treasure hunter or metal detectorist or artifact collector or bottle digger, I don't see why our hobby is any different from the rockhounds - and I am a rockhound, too. In fact, the rock shop owners that I mentioned are not your average rockhound. They collect hundreds of pounds of material and sell it for profits - with no permits or fees necessary. They pay taxes on the profits they make on the sales of the material. I'm advocating equal treatment under the law. I'm saying we are being discriminated against and it has little to do with anything except the elitist attitude of the professional archaeologists who are trying to preserve their own incomes. We are threatening their jobs - and many of them don't care about the material they dig up. They care about the books they can write and the new discovery they can name after themselves. We are being brainwashed into thinking we need them. BULL. They need us.

Do you realize that some of the best discoveries made in the field sciences were made by those who were not the scientists themselves? Mary Leakey found more old skull parts than her scientist husband did in Africa. There are many ametuer rockhounds who have minerals named after them because they first discovered them. Why do we allow ourselves to be treated as stepchildren? Only through standing our ground as equal citizens will be make progress. Submission makes us less than equals. No thanks. I'll not settle for half a loaf.

3) Equal justice under the law should refer to us treasure hunters as much as backpackers and rockclimbers. If rockclimbers can pound their pitons into the face of Half Dome in Yosemite in the name of "sport," why can't I put a shovel into the desert soil and retrieve a cache of old bottles? It is the same thing. In fact, my shovel is less harmful to the environment. The government at all levels has more historical material now in its possession than can be thoroughly "studied" in a thousand years. They are not telling us the truth when they outlaw our activities. Think about that.

My quarrel here is not with any individual. I'm on your side because we are on the same side. My quarrel is in the thinking that says we need to pay more or give up more or kiss more butts because of our hobby. Never! We need fewer hoops to jump through, not more. It was individual discoveries that made America rich. To dampen that discovery mentality is to dampen our own future.

 

[treasurejack]

IF it were all Federal land including
All Protected Sites Yes.

But, it would have to be through the Federal Government
No Archeological input at all.
IF they wish to Buy ; or a Museum wishes to buy at fair
market Value Fine.
but to do the work, after Paying to do the work,
I wouldn't want someone who is paid to sit back & watch
decide, the Particular piece of land I decided to work,
is producing more then I deserve & shut me down.

I hope what I said isn't tooooooooo Confusing :P

Jeff,
For sure there would be regs to follow, but this is mainly a "recreational bill" which takes into account that "discoveries of significance" are likely to be found, and that the finder is entitled to a portion of that discovery's market value. "No bulldozers, backhoes, or dynamite, etc." If you made the discovery, you get a portion of the market value on "everything" that may come from the site, even if the archies shut you down and take it over. Would something like this work for you?

 

[jeff of pa]

IF it were all Federal land including
All Protected Sites Yes.

But, it would have to be through the Federal Government
No Archeological input at all.
IF they wish to Buy ; or a Museum wishes to buy at fair
market Value Fine.
but to do the work, after Paying to do the work,
I wouldn't want someone who is paid to sit back & watch
decide, the Particular piece of land I decided to work,
is producing more then I deserve & shut me down.

I hope what I said isn't tooooooooo Confusing :P

Jeff,
If you made the discovery, you get a portion of the market value on "everything" that may come from the site, even if the archies shut you down and take it over. Would something like this work for you?

That would definately be a different story.

But I doubt the archies would Ever go for that.
It would be money Out their Pockets & Artifacts out of their Basements.
if they were regulated that closely.

 

[teverly]

Well i dont know,but experience tells us that if uncle sam is involved in the end it will benifit the government.
Also,i know that in some state parks you ar not even supposed to be removing rocks fossils or anything else that you find.
Even though im not a student of goverment i read somewhere that the government isnt even supposed to own land,they are just supposed to be caretakers.
If you tried to propose something it would start out simple and by the time it got to vote you would stil not be able to tell what you were allowed or not allowed to do.
In some places the local government is even trying to tell private property owners what they can and can not do with there property in regards to treasure hunting,excavating..ECT...

 

[kevino1960]

Anything and Everything the government touches goes to $*!%. My position is that they (the politico's) should be grateful to be in office, not threatening us with their power. I would say no to this bill but would support a permit, similar to the Wildlife Refuge Pass.

 

[treasurejack]

TJ, I disagree with your statement "....the general government mindset is that anything on public lands should belong to everyone because everyone pays taxes....."

1) Not everyone pays taxes, yet everyone is allowed on public lands with few exceptions, and providing the current laws are obeyed. Even foreigners are permitted on our public lands, and they never pay a dime in US taxes.

2) Not all things are prevented from being removed for the good of all, as you imply. Rocks, minerals, fossils, game & fish, and trash can currently be removed from many federally administered public lands without paying a federal fee and often without need of a federal permit. (Hunting and fishing permits/licenses are sold by the states.) Why are those things legally removed and not treasure?

I personally know two people who run small rock shops. One lives in California and one is in Oregon. Those people collect rocks, minerals, fossils from OUR lands and sell them for a profit in their shops. No permits and no fees. I'm not advocating THEY should have to buy permits, I am advocating that since they can do it, why can't we?

If I were to have a mechanized piece of heavy equipment come into a national forest and move tons of earth with it in order to look for treasure, I can see where a set of restrictions and a permitting system would be necessary. But for the average treasure hunter or metal detectorist or artifact collector or bottle digger, I don't see why our hobby is any different from the rockhounds - and I am a rockhound, too. In fact, the rock shop owners that I mentioned are not your average rockhound. They collect hundreds of pounds of material and sell it for profits - with no permits or fees necessary. They pay taxes on the profits they make on the sales of the material. I'm advocating equal treatment under the law. I'm saying we are being discriminated against and it has little to do with anything except the elitist attitude of the professional archaeologists who are trying to preserve their own incomes. We are threatening their jobs - and many of them don't care about the material they dig up. They care about the books they can write and the new discovery they can name after themselves. We are being brainwashed into thinking we need them. BULL. They need us.

Do you realize that some of the best discoveries made in the field sciences were made by those who were not the scientists themselves? Mary Leakey found more old skull parts than her scientist husband did in Africa. There are many ametuer rockhounds who have minerals named after them because they first discovered them. Why do we allow ourselves to be treated as stepchildren? Only through standing our ground as equal citizens will be make progress. Submission makes us less than equals. No thanks. I'll not settle for half a loaf.

3) Equal justice under the law should refer to us treasure hunters as much as backpackers and rockclimbers. If rockclimbers can pound their pitons into the face of Half Dome in Yosemite in the name of "sport," why can't I put a shovel into the desert soil and retrieve a cache of old bottles? It is the same thing. In fact, my shovel is less harmful to the environment. The government at all levels has more historical material now in its possession than can be thoroughly "studied" in a thousand years. They are not telling us the truth when they outlaw our activities. Think about that.

My quarrel here is not with any individual. I'm on your side because we are on the same side. My quarrel is in the thinking that says we need to pay more or give up more or kiss more butts because of our hobby. Never! We need fewer hoops to jump through, not more. It was individual discoveries that made America rich. To dampen that discovery mentality is to dampen our own future.

TT, I have to disagree, apples and oranges fall from different trees. We are talking lost treasures here, not fish, trash, rabbits, or rocks, but rather items that contain a value of historical and monetary significance. The stand that you are taking has been taken a thousand times over, which in part, is why many of the current laws are being imposed on our hobby today. Fishermen have size limits, hunters have bag limits, and the last time I checked it is illegal to remove rocks and fossils from federally governed ground. Can you imagine where these interest, fishing & hunting & trapping, would be today without imposed limits, or the permit revenue to help support these interest? "Gone are the buffalo!"

 

[TreasureTales]

I find your blaming me or my stance for the problems we currently face in treasure hunting on public lands a bit misguided to say the least. I am not the problem here. It is the bending over and saying "go ahead" that has led to our current predicament. There are enough laws on the books for punishing those who take things to the extreme, including those who damage or destroy the environment. We don't need to "protect" our historical or monetary treasures from ourselves. Who the heck do they belong to? Maybe you'd like to remove old historical photographs from their current owners, under the guise of "historical significance?" Or maybe you would like to remove old gold coins from someone's safe because of their historical and monetary significance? Who defines what is historicallly or monetarily significant? Who? Some elitist group, that's who. And their definition changes daily.

It is a slippery slope, once a permit is required, that will lead to further regulations and more taxes. You think a permit system will make things easier for us? HAH! It will make things harder in the long run. Look at the laws and fees pertaining to filing claims for small operations. The fees have increased dramatically and the paperwork is staggering - and all that for a small independent miner. That's where the permits and fees got the small time miner - a bellyful of trouble and expense.

The politicians never met a fee or tax they didn't love. They will raise the fees and put more restrictions on the permit system until only the archies can do it anyway. Look at the current treasure trove rules. Do you think they work well?

I do not advocate digging under the White House, nor to tearing up the Grand Canyon. I have strong feelings for our historical treasures. But I say a buried can of silver dimes in the desert should belong to anybody who is smart enough and good enough to find it. I say the archies have enough aritfacts to study. I say we are treated differently from those who fish and hunt and rockhound because we pose a threat to the elitist members of the field sciences.

Don't dare accuse me of being a part of the problem. I'm probably more ethical than most treasure hunters. I will not violate the federal laws. But to have more laws and fees is a joke and anyone who looks at history will see that advocating a permit system is advocating the end to the private treasure hunter and the beginning of international or multinational treasure hunting. Look at the mining industry for goodness sakes. Or the nearly non-existant lumber industry. They followed the rules and they got the axe.

 

[jeff of pa]

I do agree with TT that it may start out fine,
But do have Reservations on what could Come out of it
in the long run.

Plus, Right now we have a Nice little Group.
Most of who are in it for the Exercise, Discovery
& Love of the finds.

Add Profit Potential & everybody & their Brother
will want to be in on the Quick Buck.
Then you got Holes being dug everywhere,
by people in a hurry to dig another one.