A different version of Waltz "Confession" to Holmes

[Dirty Dutchman]

A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

This is only an OPINION.

After doing some thinking, I have come up with another possibility of what may have transpired when Dick Holmes was at the bedside of the dying Jacob Waltz.

First I want to say that we know that Waltz was giving Julia and Rhiney directions to his mine for about three months. Waltz then made up his mind that Julia and Rhiney probably wouldnt be able to find the mine on their own so he decided he would go with them. The flood changed all of that and Waltz was never able to take them to the mine himself.

While on his deathbed, maybe Waltz knew this was the end for him? He knew he would die very soon. When Julia left Waltz to get the Doctor, she asked Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts to watch over Waltz. Waltz knew Dick Holmes and knew he was an "outdoorsman". I believe Waltz did "confess" something to Dick Holmes that day, but, I dont believe it was the "murderer" story.

I believe Waltz gave Dick Holmes the directions to the mine and I believe he also gave him the Gold under his bed.

But here is where the "twist" comes into this version....

I believe Waltz wanted Dick to JOIN Julia and Rhiney in the search and SHARE the gold. I believe the statement "this should grubstake you for awhile" meant that it would grubstake ALL of them TOGETHER.

When Julia left to get the Doctor, Waltz hadnt told anyone about the gold under his bed so when he knew he was close to death, he hurriedly told Dick some "quick" directions (leaving out the "route" he told Julia and Rhiney he usually took) and told him to take the gold and SHARE it and the mine with Julia and Rhiney. I believe this is when "greed" took over.

Dick had just been given directions to a "super-rich" mine and a box full of ore. Maybe Dick decided he didnt need to share with Julia and Rhiney? Maybe he mad a deal right then with Gideon that they would share the mine and leave Julia and Rhiney out of it? Maybe thats why Gideon confirmed that Waltz had given the gold and directions to Dick? Gideon wasnt lying but, maybe he wasnt telling the WHOLE story? That could explain why no one ever heard anything from Gideon about Waltz being a "murderer"? When Gideon died a few months later, there was no one left to "challenge" Dick on how it "went down" at the time of Waltz' death. Dick had time now to make up the rest of the story as time went on.

I believe the reason Dick made up the whole "murderer" story was just to cover his tracks for taking the gold for himself. Maybe Dick thought if he had a completely different story than what Julia and Rhiney told, it would make it more "believable"? I think once he decided to keep everything for himself, he had to come up with SOME REASON that Waltz would give him and no one else the gold and the directions. What better way to do that than come up with a completely different story?

One thing that has bothered me about the whole "murderer" story was how could Waltz get such a "Long" story out before Julia could get back with the Doctor. Even the manuscript trys to "explain" this leading me to believe that Dick felt he had to tell everyone that Julia was gone a long time or no one would believe such a long story could be told in a short amount of time by a dying man. I believe Dick was "telling" on himself by even thinking he HAD to explain that part. Maybe Dick KNEW that enough time hadnt passed so he HAD to mention that Julia was gone for a long while?

If one only reads the ITALICIZED words in the manuscript (in Corbins Bible) it actually becomes "believable" that Waltz could have told Dick all of THAT information in a "short" amount of time. I believe Waltz quickly told Dick about the mine being Mexican owned, then gave him "quick" directions. Go to First Water....etc, etc.

I believe the description of the mine that Dick had only came about because Holmes "questioned" Waltz about "how much is left" when he heard that Waltz wanted them to SHARE. Greed was taking over. There is no other reason in my mind Dick would ask that question if Waltz had given the mine SOLELY to Holmes. What would Dick care? He was getting a "free" mine. Only if he had to SHARE would he wonder how much was in there.

I also believe Dick made up the "not a citizen" part of the story. I believe he questioned himself as to why, if Waltz had a "super" mine, why did he never claim it? I dont believe Dick knew, but made up the "citizen" part just in case he was questioned later on by others who would also ask why Waltz never claimed it. (I personally believe Waltz never claimed it because of the "Reavis land fraud fiasco")

If this is what happened it is unfortunate for both parties. Maybe if they had "worked together", they would have found it?

Some things to think about anyway.

Thanks,
Travis

 

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[Cubfan64]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

Travis,

I think that's a pretty reasonable theory overall - I was always struck by how much information a sick and dying Waltz might have related in a reasonably short time.

As far as the gold under the bed, I would think Reinhardt and Julia had to at least been guessing what it contained. Waltz had given them rich ore in the past to help her pay off some debts, he had been telling them about a mine, and he MUST have had Reinhardt bring the candlebox along with other items from his home when he moved in with Julia - one would think they would have to have guessed what was in it.

I do find it strange to that if he was willing to explain to them where the mine was, and he had helped them in the past with debt, why didn't he tell them what was in the box? In fact, when it comes down to it, maybe Waltz did tell them what was in it, but they were respectfully waiting for him to die before taking and using it? Afterall, didn't Julia accuse Dick of stealing the gold after Waltz died? If she didn't know it was there, why would she accuse him of that?

Greed is an amazing things isn't it?

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

Cub,

I definately think Julia and Rhiney knew Waltz had gold in his possesion. Remember it was Rhiney who dug up and brought back the "lead sealed" can to Waltz. Waltz inspected it to make sure Rhiney hadnt gotten into it and told him to come back the next day and he would "square up" with him. The next day Rhiney said Waltz gave him some gold and told him to go "trade" it for cash. That is when Rhiney said he "stiffed" Waltz for about $5.25 giving Waltz only $.75 back.

I believe Waltz didnt tell them what was in the box because maybe he thought he might actually get better. From the information we have about how much gold Holmes turned in, i calculated it to be about $380,000 in todays "worth". I personally dont think they were as close of friends until Julias husband left her and Waltz saw the financials and realized Julia didnt really make that much money. Remember Waltz supposedly said "no one should have to work that hard just for a living". Thats when they became "close", in my opinion.

There is no doubt to me that Julia knew there was gold in Waltz' possesion. He had, afterall, paid her bills with gold. I still think Julia and Rhiney thought Waltz would get better. Remember Rhiney said "I never thought of Waltz dying before he took us to the mine"(paraphrasing). That to me is why they probably never even thought about the gold in Waltz' possesion. He was going to take them to get their own.

Travis

 

[Twisted Fork]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

Waltz never intended to show anyone where the mine was, unless he was dealing with corrupt enemies of some sort or another and even then that might leave him feeling guilty in some way. The location was guarded by elected Apache warriors and taking or sending anyone into the area again would have ended up with the same results as which took place with his good Friend Weiser. Waltz barely escaped himself. He left behind a sizeable cache buried near a spring (Fresco) where he and his partner camped the night before he was killed; a place where Waltz and Weiser camped intially before they murdered two of the Peralta teens who's carelessness and lack of guards allowed the two German immigrants to over take them in the first place. They were prospecting and prospectors follow some sort of sign that leads up to the lode they seek.

If Waltz really wanted those pests in town to know where the mine is located, he could have easily drawn them a map trailing straight to it with ease. There are undeniable key landmarks, sign and Spanish Monuments all around the location of the funnel. Sending them on a wild goose chase half way there is far more likely; a half lie if you will and especially if they were any kind of friends or neighbors that he wouldn't wish to see endangered or worse.

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

Twisted,

All that you have written could very well be the truth.

The only problem i have is, where do you come up with the Cache being at "Spring (Fresco)? I have too read something about the "Fresco" part of the legend but it was "Canyon Fresco". Which in my mind, would mean Fresh Water Canyon, or Canyon of Fresh Water. (I'm from a border town so my spanish could be off a bit) If this is a "guarded secret" of yours, then i apologize for asking.

As for Waltz giving "false" directions, i dont see the "why" in your version. Wouldnt it have been easier for Waltz to not have said anything? Why help Julia with financial troubles? From the information i have to go by, Waltz paid for her debts in GOLD. If Waltz truly wanted to die with the "secret", i believe he would have never even said a word. Anyone that wanted to hide the fact that he had gold, wouldnt have "shown" it to anyone, in my opinion.

When i first started researching this subject, i couldnt figure out why Waltz didnt just "name" the landmarks they were supposed to look for. After listening to Clay Worst speak, at the time of Waltz' death, The landmarks and canyons were just starting to get "names". Most places or landmarks didnt have a "name" at that time.

I also don't agree with your stating that Waltz could have drawn a map for them straight to it. Waltz hadnt been there in quite awhile according to the information i have available. If i may give an example. I have been to DisneyLand in California about 15 times in my lifetime, and havent been there in about 15 years. I would bet money if i tried to draw the "front gates" or what you see when you walk in, it wouldnt even be close. Not because my memory is that bad, but i KNOW its the gates to DisneyLand. Meaning i already know its there. Heck, I might have even gotten a MAP. So why would I pay attention to "landmarks" around Anaheim? But, if I were trying to describe it to someone, I might just have to do the best i can. Giving "clues" like.....You will see "Iron Gates", A big "castle", a lot of bushes that look like "animals", a big "mouse" wearing shorts. Am I LYING?......No. It may not be the most exact description, but if you actually FOUND those things when you were "wandering around" California, maybe you found it?

In my opinion, if I wanted to "protect" someone, the last place i would send them on a "goosechase" is the Superstition Mountains, especially in Waltz' time.

Again, just my opinion.

Thanks,
Travis

 

[Twisted Fork]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

There used to be a spring deep into the wilderness, below 4 peaks and a trail that led down the the mine and fishing holes at the Salt River. The Superstition trail that is followed today, was and still is designed to kill those who do not know better. The real trail head East out of Mesa, runs past the Peralta Placers and the location where the tablets were buried. A second trail runs North out of Globe and drives about 18 miles North where a trail could be picked up going about 20 miles out to the Salt River. That first old spring is pretty isolated but could aling one up with the near direction to the mine, also along the river and below a hat shape mountain that ressembles a haystack or strawhat. Old cattle trails came from the original trail of the Spanish Horse Soldier or old military trail that ran along the Salt and up around to the North Ute fork along the Black River or back to Santa Fe.

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

Twisted,

Im straining to figure out what this actually has to do with what i posted. Unless youre saying that none of it happened as the "history books" tell us it did?

I dont know if youre making up your own "version" or, you've actually read all of this somewhere? Either way, since no one has found the mine that we know of, your guess is as good as anyones.

You still didnt answer the "why" from your first post. (In my opinion, and i may be a "simpleton" and am just not getting what youre trying to say)

Travis

 

[Twisted Fork]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

Trying to get the answers out there before the next questions I figure. The Salt River is the main landmark in the area. Most folks back in the day, carried a compass in the wilderness and a small handfull of main trails to keep in mind. Distances were refered to by so many days or portions of a ride or walk. Water though scarce, (artisan wells in general) were and still are key. The sunrise, the sunset, areas known to be frequented by lightning and so forth. Mineral zones stand out like a sore thumb and so do fishing holes and offshoot hunting trails. Choices narrow down pretty quick when all you have is your back to survive off of and of course the land. The natives were pretty slick in this as well......"Three days ride toward the rising sun are three red hills (mounds like unto iron deposits). Such and such a distance from the third red hill is the mine." This trail of course begins at the mouth of Hieroglyphic Canyon and is an Apache trail arranged for the Apache and not the white man. This is why the Peraltas went a different way and buried their tablets where they did accordingly. As for the Dutchman and company, he just followed the Salt River straight to it and was at the right place when he and Wiser overheard picks striking stone nearby.

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

Twisted,

If you say the Apaches were "guarding" the area and, that is why Weiser was killed, why didnt the Apache kill the "peons" that were there? If your story is correct, they should have been "guarding" it ALL of the time. If there were Apache guards, NO ONE should have ever gotten close to it. In my opinion.

As i said before, until someone actually finds it, or proves they found it, your story is as good as mine. I dont agree with it but, to each his own.

Travis

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

Twisted,

As for Waltz and Weiser following some sort of "evidence" or "trail" to the gold mine, I assume you mean finding small amounts of gold and "following" it back to its source. Like it was "flowing" down the canyon?

Again i find that hard to believe if the mine is a "Vertical Pit Mine". If what youre saying is true, then there is an "opening" somewhere at the bottom that gold is "leaking" out of. Why didnt they just make THAT hole bigger instead of going "down" a "dangerous path" everytime?

Again, i'm probably being a simpleton but, that story has too many "holes" for me.

Travis

 

[Twisted Fork]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

The Peraltas like all prospectors just loved to take lots of the latest guns with them. Even Apache warriors are somewhat partial to their flesh being free of hot lead. The float they all followed brought them to Gleason Flats, just below the hat shaped peak that reassembles a straw hat; not a sombrero. A drawing of a sombrero is reference to any hat you might imagine "A hat shaped peak" There are several different hat shaped peaks, here and there in the area.

The Peraltas had access to privileged information as have I in my own way and many others here on TNet and abroad. They evidently were true artists with pecked sign that we are still trying to read in the same manners, following in the footprints of those who came before them. Most folk just watch to much T.V. or something, rather than being in tune with nature anymore. These are learned and lived skills to begin with. Entering a savage wilderness and making it back home in one piece; with or without treasure. It is about playing with shapes in different scales as they are found in nature and then using them to make childlike puzzles that one like the King of Spain had a great appreciation for. Step by step as in dot to dot systems.

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

Twisted,

Ok, this is getting way off of my topic. I still have no idea of what youre trying to say. The Apache are guarding it, then theyre afraid of guns, now were gonna debate what a "hat" looks like.......

I actually love when people try to "scare" people on here about how those mountains are a "Savage Wilderness"! Guess what i ran into a few weeks ago right smack in the middle of those "Savage" mountains.....Hold onto your "hat".....BOYSCOUTS!!!! 8 of them.........Scary stuff!! (Please take this statement a little "tounge in cheek")

I do agree with you on one thing, getting away from the TV and getting out but, thats about all I can agree with you on.

Maybe its just that im not privy to the correct "privileged" information and i will leave it at that.

Travis

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

Hola amigos,

Dirty Dutchman wrote

This is only an OPINION.

After doing some thinking, I have come up with another possibility of what may have transpired when Dick Holmes was at the bedside of the dying Jacob Waltz. <snip>

You have an interesting theory; there is another that Waltz did in fact give the correct directions to the mine to Holmes, as he had helped out Julia and Reiney enough, and the stipulation was that Holmes would do right by Waltz's sister rather than Julia and Reiney. Then we have to ask whether the directions as put forth in the Holmes Manuscript are the same and complete as what Waltz actually told Holmes, which is highly doubtful.

Then too, even if either of these theories are correct and Holmes did have the correct directions - he failed to locate it over many years of searching! Something must be wrong with the directions, clearly.

Good luck and good hunting amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Coffee?

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

Hello Oro,

Thanks for the input. That other theory you posed could very well work also. That could very well explain why the Sister is mentioned in the Holmes account. I doubt there is anyway to know that part of the story for sure.

In my opinion, the directions were "right on". (Other than the actual "directions" once you find the camp, these were obviously left out) I believe they were however, "misinterpreted" by someone in the "Holmes Group", for whatever reason. It's very difficult to explain without giving away my research as I believe this "misinterpretation" has been a major reason that no one has found it yet.

It is my opinion that Dick Holmes ignored those directions and decided to start where he supposedly had "tracked" Waltz to, only to find Waltz "waiting" to confront his follower. I personally believe that Waltz KNEW he was being followed that day and led his follower to a different spot on purpose. Again, the "reason" would give away my research so i'm sorry to be so vague. I believe this is why Dick started in a completely "oddball" area and, was never able to locate the mine.

Thanks again,
Travis

P.S. I'm new to the "forum thing", what's with the "coffee"(Im sorry if this is a stupid question! )

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

Hola amigo,

Without giving away your "X" I would love to read more of your ideas as to where those directions would lead, if interpreted correctly. There is reason to suspect that your theory is correct, for example in the directions as published from Holmes, we are supposed to go first to First Water, yet where did Holmes head immediately on the death of Waltz? Not First Water but Hidden Water, where he found a skull with a chain etc. This is but one example of what gives me strong doubts on the Holmes version of how to find the mine - that Holmes himself did not follow his own directions.

The coffee is our 'virtual' offering of sharing hot coffee around our 'virtual' campfire, as we would do if we could be meeting in person, in our camp. If you are a coffee addict (like some of us) it is not possible to refuse! For others, hot tea, cocoa or cold beer or pop would be more to their taste, if such is your preference please feel free to indulge yourself, until we meet in person and can be offered hospitality in reality.
your friend in Dakota Territory,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

oops almost forgot!

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

Oro,

Here is something i took down from another post due some disagreements with another fellow on here. This is what i originally removed from "Jacob Waltz the Killer?" Again, this is just my opinion but I try to give a few MORE reasons why Dick made up the story surrounding the actual clues. It includes my thoughts on the "dead Nephew" part of the story. At this point though, i believe the "sharing the mine" story over any of them.



In my opinion, there is not enough "evidence" to support the "Holmes manuscript". This account shows Waltz as a "killer" that would do anything to keep his mine.

The very beginning of this story "blows" it for me when Waltz is supposedly attacked by 3 Indians. If Waltz was a killer, why did he NEVER FIRE A SHOT? He was known to be armed, as the rest of the manuscript says he was. You have to keep in mind, Waltz hadnt found the mine yet. So he let 3 Indians armed with Bow and Arrows run him off from EVERYTHING he owned in the world, without firing a shot? I dont think so. Remember Waltz had traveled across the toughest and most dangerous country, just to get to the West. I believe Waltz would have put up SOME kind of fight.

Next is the "2 soldier" story. Thomas Glover wrote in his book "The Golden Dream" that there was a different story about 2 French Soldiers that he thought had been "woven" into the Manuscript and the Lost Dutchman Legend. I have also read that most soldiers went AROUND the mountains, not through them. There were far too many dangers at that time.

Next would be the "nephew" story. Julia and Rhiney NEVER mention a Nephew and they visited with Waltz almost daily. If this were true, one would think it would at least have been mentioned, in my opinion. Keep in mind, Dick Holmes is the one who "found" the body, but RE-BURIED it, because he didnt want to disturb the body (too late Dick). Brownie never mentions digging the body up to see for himself. Also keep in mind, Waltz DID NOT make frequent trips to the mine. And when he did, he wasnt gone long enough to "mine" anything. Why would he send off for someone to help mine, when he only went in their occasionally to pick up some gold out of the Cache and leave? He told Julia and Rhiney that he had a "large cache" of gold that he had dug out with his PARTNER WEISER. (I think the only reason Waltz covered the mine was someone was "stealing" gold from it. E.G. Deering/Chunning story; Pipps story. I also think he covered it because he had plenty of gold out, and decided he probably wouldnt need to mine anymore because of the "cache" he had.

I have also read that Hermann Petrasch "compared clues" with Brownie Holmes at one time.

In my opinion, there are 7 possibilities to this story.
1) Waltz lied to Dick Holmes. (maybe because Dick did follow him into the mountains at one time?)

2)Dick Holmes had plenty of time to "follow" Julia around and pick up SOME clues, then Dick "made up" the story to cover his A** for stealing the gold out from under the bed. Brownie wouldnt have heard this story for awhile (being a baby), giving Dick plenty of time to get his story "straight" before passing it on to his son. Some people disagree with me and ask why would Dick send his only son out there to search if he had made it up. Keep THIS in mind, the STORY from Dick Holmes may have been made up, but the GOLD from Jacob Waltz was REAL. Dick "knew" Waltz had SOMETHING out there in those mountains SOMEWHERE that had gold in it. (mine or cache? My opinion is both)

3) Brownie Holmes had SOME clues from his father, he then received more clues from his conversations with Hermann Petrasch. From this, Brownie could have made up the story himself. The manuscript didnt "come out" until the 1970's and i believe was written in the 1940's. Brownie spent his whole life in the mountains without finding it. Maybe Brownie "spiced up" the manuscript to have SOMETHING to sell and make some money. Then, for whatever reason, didnt want to release it. Maybe he thought one of his "partners" would find the mine and didnt want the clues he did have to "get out".

4) There was a story written by Barry Storm that came out BEFORE the Manuscript that sounds almost EXACTLY like the "murderer story" in the manuscript (in my opinion). Did Storm have a hand in the manuscript? Did Storm hear it somewhere? Did Brownie write this with Storm?

5) Waltz was so sick and delirious, he thought he was talking to Rhiney at the time of his death.

6) Waltz may have told Dick Holmes directions and nothing more. We know that Waltz didn’t think Julia and Rhiney could find the mine by themselves because he wanted to go with them and show them where it was. Maybe when he knew he was dying, he told Dick the directions. Maybe his original intention was for Dick to have the gold under his bed to grubstake ALL of them. Then for whatever reason, Dick decided to keep the directions and the gold and made the story up to protect himself from having to share it with Thomas/Petrasch.

7) Waltz was truly a killer like Dick Holmes says and Waltz confessed to him on his deathbead.

I would have also listed that Brownie could have had nothing to do with the manuscript, but after hearing Clay Worst tell the story as it was relayed to him by Brownie, it leaves little doubt in my mind that Brownie was involved in the manuscript. I believe he may have “denied” being involved with it only because whoever was helping him “took liberty’s” with the story, or Brownie decided he didn’t want the clues out.

Something must be remembered. Dick and Brownie searched ALL OVER the Superstition mountains. If they had the "real" directions from the start, wouldnt they have had a more REFINED search area? From reading the manuscript itself, Brownie just seemed to be "wandering around" without really having a SPECIFIC place to look. Everytime someone would relay a story about a goldmine somewhere, it seems like Brownie would "jump" and search a new area. At least Julia had a "spot" that she concentrated on.

The Holmes manuscript also has the clue about the Four Peaks lining up to look like one. I havent been able to find ANYTHING in my research about Petrasch or Thomas mentioning the Four Peaks. That could mean a few things.

1) That was a "guarded" secret by Holmes as well as Petrasch/Thomas and they thought it was too important of a clue to "let it out".

2) It was a "lie" told to Holmes either by Waltz or Petrasch.

3) It was a "made up" clue by whoever helped Brownie with the manuscript.

The manuscript says once you find the "hidden camp" youre supposed to "come back out of the canyon". The clues "stop" there in the manuscript and doesnt give the "directions" to the mine. There could be a couple of reasons for this.

1) Brownie didnt want to reveal what else he knew.

2) Brownie didnt really know "WHY" were supposed to go to the camp in the FIRST PLACE. Remember, Rhiney asked Waltz if he needed to borrow some tools to work the mine and Waltz said "no", i have tools there so we dont need to bring any. (I have read two versions: the tools were in the camp; the tools were hidden above in the saddle in a hole. Maybe Brownie didnt really know the "why" of it? Or, he wanted someone to contact him and let him help with the "find".

In my opinion, the Holmes manuscript sounds too much like a "made for TV" movie. The Petrasch/Thomas story of how Waltz obtained the mine seems like a more "real life" story to me.

There are also more "related" stories that go along with Waltz obtaining the mine the way Julia and Rhiney said he did.

1) Julia had a handbag stolen that supposedly contained Waltz' naturalization papers, note from Peralta for the 60k, Bill of Sale to the "2 JAKES" for the rights to the mine, a PARCHEMENT map, and directions to the mine.

2) The Walker/Weiser story says that Weiser gave Walker a PARCHEMENT map before he died. This story gives more clout to the "partner story", in my opinion.

3) My own personal thought is this: The Peraltas NEVER came back to get the mine. I have read that Miguel was a very honorable man. If he truly was honorable, and he had given his "rights" to the mine over to Waltz and Weiser, that could explain why he never tried to get the mine again even after Waltz had died. He could have, but he didnt. He instead killed himself and left a note that said "I had the money, i have lost it, good by". Miguel probably wouldnt have known if Waltz had "claimed" it or not, but maybe Miguel ASSUMED Waltz had claimed it and didnt think he could get it anyway. My point to this part is, that would give BIG TIME credibility to the Petrasch/Thomas story of "Two Jakes" who obtained the mine "legally". There is also a story about the “Two Jakes” where Peralta only gave them “temporary” ownership of the mine. According to this version, they were to take out 30k, plus a “satisfactory profit”. I don’t know for sure if I believe that version, but it COULD very well explain why Waltz never “claimed” the mine, in my opinion.

*Side note: I think the manuscript “tells” on itself with the line about Waltz not claiming the mine because he wasn’t a citizen. This tells me that Dick Holmes ASSUMED that was the reason why Waltz never claimed the mine. Dick didn’t really know WHY and made the assumption that Waltz didn’t do it because he wasn’t a citizen. In reality, in may have been that Waltz either only had “temporary” ownership from Peralta, or he didn’t want anyone “claimjumping” around his very rich mine.
Another theory, which is my current belief, is that Waltz didn’t claim the mine due to the whole “Reavis land fraud” fiasco.

Thanks again,
Travis

Dangit, now i forgot. Here you go.....
(I prefer Dos Equis!)

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

Oro,

I would also like to add that i do not believe that Dick Holmes went to Hidden Water first. I believe that was part of his "cover up" story. I believe he went to the Tortilla Mountain area because of where he last "followed" Waltz and was "discovered" by Jacob. I personally believe if he had never followed Waltz, he would have found the correct location.....maybe. (The "maybe" is thrown in there because i do believe they misinterpreted clues)

I'm sorry but, if I gave away my interpretation of the clues, it would be a dead give away to where my location is. They are that easy to follow, in my opinion. And no, i am not claiming to have found the mine yet. The closest i believe i have come to the mine is about 100 feet below it.....without realizing it at the time. I hadnt educated myself on all of the "other clues" about the surrounding area at that time so i came home. Only to realize that, if i am correct, i was probably standing right under the darn thing. That is when i made the decision to try to find as much information as possible on this subject. My location hasnt changed since i started this in October of last year, but the "story" sure has jumped around a lot!

Thanks,
Travis

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: A different version of Waltz' "Confession" to Holmes

Hola amigo Dirty Dutchman,

Thank you for taking the time to explain - your logic and reasoning are excellent. I especially agree on your side note, that the Holmes manuscript contains its own deadfall in the clear falsehoods. We can not know the reasons for these inaccuracies of course, but it should be enough to give a treasure hunter pause before trusting the manuscript to find the lost mine.

I have to sign off, wishing you a very pleasant evening!
Roy

 

[roadrunner]

Quick question.
What would be the best book,article,or manuscript,or item to buy that would be the closest single item to the truth,or to the actual accounts of what went on right before,during Waltz's death,and immediately afterwards.

In other words, i don't want to buy 5 books on fiction.
Or,just keep reading the information from you guys.
Which actually is cheaper,and faster.

 

[Springfield]

Quick question.
What would be the best book,article,or manuscript,or item to buy that would be the closest single item to the truth,or to the actual accounts of what went on right before,during Waltz's death,and immediately afterwards.

In other words, i don't want to buy 5 books on fiction.
Or,just keep reading the information from you guys.
Which actually is cheaper,and faster.

Buy 'em all - hearsay is cheap and easy. Fill your bookcase with it. Even if you were in Phoenix 120 years ago, you'd be in the same boat. Bottom line: this is for entertainment only. If you go out there into the hills, wait until winter, wear good boots and take plenty of water.

From Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
Disinformation - false information deliberately and often covertly spread (as by the planting of rumors) in order to influence public opinion or obscure the truth.