.45 Casing Frankford Arsenal Dated January 1912

[Old Pueblo]

Hello, I have an old .45 casing from the Frankford Arsenal that is dated January 1912. I know the US military began using the M1911 around this time and was wondering if anybody knows if the US military was using .45 rounds like this before the M1911 entered service.

Thank you.

 

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[huntsman53]

Yep, the Colt M1905 which was mainly a Prototype and forerunner to the M1911.


Frank

 

[Old Pueblo]

Yes, thats right. I knew there were other pistols. Is that all, though? I know these .45s were later used in submachineguns, like the Tommy gun, but is that it? Were there any other .45 weapons used at his time by our military?. And do you know if the bullets for the M1905 and the M1911 were exactly the same? I imagine they were, just wondering.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

When the 1911 was formally adopted it became the standard military sidearm, there were several others considered though, including a .45 cal Luger, I think the earlier Colts saw some continued service but they were all phased out withing a short time. The Thompson came around in 1921, but wasn't adopted by the military until 1938. As far as I can think of there were no other sub guns used by the US military until then.

 

[BosnMate]

Yes, thats right. I knew there were other pistols. Is that all, though? I know these .45s were later used in submachineguns, like the Tommy gun, but is that it? Were there any other .45 weapons used at his time by our military?. And do you know if the bullets for the M1905 and the M1911 were exactly the same? I imagine they were, just wondering.

Yes, there were a number of .45 caliber weapons, however your case is for a semi auto, and there were no other semi autos. Started 1870's with the Colt revolver and the Schofield revolver which are two .45 caliber pistols I can think of. Also the 45-70 rifle, the 45-55 carbine and there was a Gatling gun I think in 45-70. I know there was a 50 caliber Gatling gun. The empty brass on all those is totally different than what you have.

 

[huntsman53]

Yes the M1905 Pistols and M1911 Pistols shot the same cartridge, the .45 ACP! In 1909, the U.S. Army adopted and used a .45 M1909 Cartridge used in the Colt New Service Revolvers which was vitually identical to the .45 Colt Cartridge. The M1909 Cartridge replaced the .45 M1887 Military Ball Cartridge which replaced both the .45 Colt Cartridge for the Colt 1873 Peacemakers and the .45 Schofield Cartridge for the Smith & Wesson Schofield Revolvers used by the U.S. Army as the (corrected) M1909 could be used in both revolvers with no problems. Most of these noted Pistols and Revolvers were used by the U.S. Army well beyond the adoption and use of the M1911.


Frank

P.S. Sorry BosnMate! I was typing and checking sources while you were apparently posting.

 

[Old Pueblo]

Thats guys. This is great information. So would it be safe to say that since this .45 ACP is from the Frankford Arsenal and dated January 1912, that is made for use in the M1905 or the M1911?

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Thats guys. This is great information. So would it be safe to say that since this .45 ACP is from the Frankford Arsenal and dated January 1912, that is made for use in the M1905 or the M1911?

Most likely yes.

 

[Old Pueblo]

Thanks again, guys. You have been a lot of help so far, but Ive got plenty more old bullets and stuff to ask about.

 

[Old Pueblo]

Oh and here is another question for anybody to answer.

Does anyone know when that little space (as seen on this .45) in between the shaft of the casing and the bottom where the headstamp is, was first used on ammunition? And what is that called, if anything?

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Oh and here is another question for anybody to answer.

Does anyone know when that little space (as seen on this .45) in between the shaft of the casing and the bottom where the headstamp is, was first used on ammunition? And what is that called, if anything?

It's called an "extractor groove" they are found on "rimless" and "semi rimless" cartridges, I'm not certain when exactly they were invented offhand, but I want to say 1880's roughly?

The reason for the groove.... Rimmed ammunition stacks kinda odd in a magazine, while rimless ammunition loads fairly flat in the mag. With rimmed ammo, the extractor can just grab the rim of the casing, but in order to get the casing to extract with no rim they had to add the groove for the extractor to have somewhere to grab on to.