17th Century Acapulco Ship info Needed

[pegleglooker]

Greetings Everyone,
I was wondering if anyone might be able to help me track down what kind of ships were built for Nicolas Cardona in late 1614 at Acapulco. The names of the ships were the San Antonio, San Francisco and San Diego. I have one report stating that they were "frigates," but it is my understanding that this was a term for a variety of ships. These vessels were used for pearl fishing, among other duties, however, I am just trying to confirm what kind of ships they really were. Does anyone have access to to early ship building records from Acapulco

In Cardona's book from 1624 Hydrographic and Geographic Descriptions of Many northern and Southern Lands and Seas in the Indies, Specifically of the Discovery of the Kingdom of California, which was translated by Mathes, it states:

"Nicolas was put in charge of the exploration. He went to Acapulco end of 1614 and built three frigates there."

But most of us think it might have been Caravel's, and I am just trying to prove it one way or another frigate or caravel... I'm "hoping" to find a document that states it one way or the other...Preferably in Cardona's hand writing or the shipbuilder logs, but I know that's a real long shot..

Thx in Advance!
PLL

 

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[ARC]

Welllll.... A "Frigate" was a warship... made for battle.

A Caravel was small faster ship... So... one would assume you would be closer to a Caravel in your quest. IMO

 

[pegleglooker]

Welllll.... A "Frigate" was a warship... made for battle.

A Caravel was small faster ship... So... one would assume you would be closer to a Caravel in your quest. IMO

I agree, but what I am hoping to find is some kinda of ship building paperwork, or something in Cardona's own handwriting that states which kind of ships they were. And according to my research the term "frigate" or fragata in Spanish, meant the smallest ship in the large ship division... Which is a warship with a single row of guns, like the Fragata Garzota .

 

[ARC]

Good luck in your venture.

 

[seekerGH]

looking at different sources, I note that wiki says frigates, while other sources do not...

The Spanish regarded the gulf as a prime fishing area for pearls and the king of Spain granted pearl fishing rights to only a small number of his subjects. After Tomás de Cardona was granted such rights in 1611, his nephew, Nicolás (1570?-1625?), explored the area.

Nicolás de Cardona left Spain in 1613 and sailed to Vera Cruz, Mexico. He then traveled overland to Acapulco where he built three ships for his expedition. The result was a detailed survey, Geographic and hydrographic descriptions of many northern and southern lands and seas in the Indies, specifically the discovery of the kingdom of California. This survey of the Gulf of California led Cardona to the mouth of the Colorado River, which he thought split the continent in half.

During his adventures, the Colorado River still flowed to the Gulf of California (on the right)


This text notes that Tomás de Cardona had the ships built, perhaps look at that resource. (or de Iturbe)


Spielbergen "In 1614, he sailed beyond the Strait of Magellan and raided the Spanish settlements on the coast of Mexico. On October 26, he captured the pearl fishing ship San Francisco at Zacatula." he renamed it the Parel, or pearl in Dutch

I think this is relevant as Inturbe was given command of the San Diego

The Pearl Ship of Juan De Iturbe

The Pearl Ship may be the same ship as the Lost Galleon but it has always been reported close to the sand hills west of El Centro, California. Its descriptions when given are closer to the size of one of Columbus's small Caravels. Fifteenth-century records from New Spain (Mexico) indicate that the De La Cadena family had a pearl diving monopoly in Baja California.

The Pearl Ship is rumored to have been seen as recently as the 1970s. The story goes that in 1615 Spanish explorer Juan De Iturbe sailed a shallow-drafted caravel up the Gulf of California, and a high tidal bore carried him across a strait into Lake Cahuilla, which was in the process of drying up. Unable to sail out again, Iturbe beached his craft and made his way back to the nearest Spanish settlement, leaving behind a fortune in black pearls. (emphasis added to protect the innocent)

This ship has been seen and lost several times and there are several stories about this ship having been looted. A mule driver of the de Anza expedition was said to have removed the pearls in 1774. Around 1917 an El Centro farmer named Jacobsen was said to have found a very small chest of jewels, which he quietly sold in Los Angeles, and to have used timber from the pearl ship to build his pig pens.

Is this all about the pearl ship legend? noting the reference to the Black Pearl.

 

[pegleglooker]

looking at different sources, I note that wiki says frigates, while other sources do not...

The Spanish regarded the gulf as a prime fishing area for pearls and the king of Spain granted pearl fishing rights to only a small number of his subjects. After Tomás de Cardona was granted such rights in 1611, his nephew, Nicolás (1570?-1625?), explored the area.

Nicolás de Cardona left Spain in 1613 and sailed to Vera Cruz, Mexico. He then traveled overland to Acapulco where he built three ships for his expedition. The result was a detailed survey, Geographic and hydrographic descriptions of many northern and southern lands and seas in the Indies, specifically the discovery of the kingdom of California. This survey of the Gulf of California led Cardona to the mouth of the Colorado River, which he thought split the continent in half.

During his adventures, the Colorado River still flowed to the Gulf of California (on the right)
View attachment 1371363

This text notes that Tomás de Cardona had the ships built, perhaps look at that resource. (or de Iturbe)
View attachment 1371369

Spielbergen "In 1614, he sailed beyond the Strait of Magellan and raided the Spanish settlements on the coast of Mexico. On October 26, he captured the pearl fishing ship San Francisco at Zacatula." he renamed it the Parel, or pearl in Dutch

I think this is relevant as Inturbe was given command of the San Diego

The Pearl Ship of Juan De Iturbe

The Pearl Ship may be the same ship as the Lost Galleon but it has always been reported close to the sand hills west of El Centro, California. Its descriptions when given are closer to the size of one of Columbus's small Caravels. Fifteenth-century records from New Spain (Mexico) indicate that the De La Cadena family had a pearl diving monopoly in Baja California.

The Pearl Ship is rumored to have been seen as recently as the 1970s. The story goes that in 1615 Spanish explorer Juan De Iturbe sailed a shallow-drafted caravel up the Gulf of California, and a high tidal bore carried him across a strait into Lake Cahuilla, which was in the process of drying up. Unable to sail out again, Iturbe beached his craft and made his way back to the nearest Spanish settlement, leaving behind a fortune in black pearls. (emphasis added to protect the innocent)

This ship has been seen and lost several times and there are several stories about this ship having been looted. A mule driver of the de Anza expedition was said to have removed the pearls in 1774. Around 1917 an El Centro farmer named Jacobsen was said to have found a very small chest of jewels, which he quietly sold in Los Angeles, and to have used timber from the pearl ship to build his pig pens.

Is this all about the pearl ship legend? noting the reference to the Black Pearl.

So the question is where did these people get their sources? Because if asked, I would always quote the Cardona book, and that states frigates.... Btw here is a rendering of a frigate built in Havana around 1600.. Note a single row of guns and even then only five per side... (three openings not showing the guns)...

 

[seekerGH]

What Cardona book are you talking about?

I gave some details on different potential resources, be it Iturbe, Speilbergen, or Tomas Codona....not sure why there would be the extra expense to build and arm frigatta when just on pearl expeditions.

 

[pegleglooker]

What Cardona book are you talking about?

I gave some details on different potential resources, be it Iturbe, Speilbergen, or Tomas Codona....not sure why there would be the extra expense to build and arm frigatta when just on pearl expeditions.

Because the ships weren't used exclusively for pearl fishing, they were also used for defense and in one case, one of the ships sailed out to warn the fleet coming from the Philippines that the Dutch pirate Joris Van Spillbergen,was in the area... To me, that means they had to be able to handle the oceans, and yes I also know that both would have done that.. After all Columbus used two caravels, and a carrack, back in 1492. See the confusion... Besides, Mathes may have said frigate and meant caravel, because my research says that the term "fragata" was used for many different types of ships.. And also Tomas Cardona was the one with the license, but it was his nephew (Nicolas) that went to the Sea of Cortez and was in charge of the whole operation...

 

[seekerGH]

Tomas Cardona was the person who had the ships constructed, these were in 1614, for pearl diving. I would follow the money, not a captain.
I note that in many of the images in Cordonas survey, there are 3 ships shown, none of which are frigates.
Iturbe took one of these ships, Spilbergen captured one, calling it a pearl boat, he did not call it a frigate, and capturing a frigate would be noteworthy. Sending a ship to warn others does not require a frigate, a frigate would have stayed on to protect.

It was not until Cordona returned in 1618 under Marquis de Caderita, were note of the frigates constructed, but these were both short lived. In 1621 2 more frigates were constructed in Acapulco, and these were used for defence and to recover sunken treasure ships, not dive for pearls.

There are other, older threads on TNET about the lost pearl ship of the desert, be in Salton Sea or wherever...it seems you have the same request and arguments there.

 

[pegleglooker]

I hate to say this, but I can't really on Wikipedia as a factual source of information. So lets see if I can go with what I found, first Tomas Cardona may have had ships built for the journey across the ocean, but he did not have ships built in Acapulco. Noted historian/librarian Dr. W Michael Mathes, author of over 250 books, receiver of the Order of the Aztec eagle, Hubert Howe Bancroft Award, and the Order of Isabella the Catholic, was considered THE expert on early Gulf and Baja history. His private collection of books and other historic material was over 45,000 items, but sadly he passed away in 2012. This is THE expert that I would listen to and believe.... Nicolas Cardona wrote his own book back in 1624 entitled Hydrographic and Geographic Descriptions of Many northern and Southern Lands and Seas in the Indies, Specifically of the Discovery of the Kingdom of California. This is where your picture comes from, and I do have a copy of this book. Dr. Mathes translated the original text and in the 1974 version, he also wrote the 24 page introduction and according to his findings:

On August 13th, 1611, a Royal Order was issued to Tomas de Cardona, Sancho de Meras, and Francisco de la Paraya, all of Sevilla, granting them the rights for pearl fishing previously held by Vizcaino. Preparations for the expedition were placed under the command of Cardona's nephew, Nicolas, who had previously sailed to New Spain in 1610 as captain in the fleet of General Juan Gutierrez de Garibay. Built in Palos de Moguer, the six vessels under Nicolas de Cardona and Captain Francisco Basilio set sail from Cadiz along with the fleet of General Antonio de Oquendo. (pg 14 of Tomas' book)

Dr Mathes goes on and states that Nicolas reached Barbados, then Guadeloupe, and Puerto Rico he also visited several islands while saving 28 Europeans and some Indians, and Negros from Caribbean Indians. The voyage eventually ended in 1614 at Veracruz. Dr. Mathes states that "preparations were made" but I'm sure he referring to the overland trip. From Veracruz Nicolas went overland to Mexico City and finally Acapulco, one could then assume the ships that were used were under his command, but did not belong to Nicolas or Tomas, and that's why they were most likely left at Veracruz. Along the way Basilio became sick and died. Now the next part is taken again from Dr. Mathes own words:

While in Mexico, Cardona (Nicolas) obtained supplies and enlisted Juan de Iturbe as the replacement for Basilio, and Pedro Alvarez de Rosales as his military commander. Proceeding to Acapulco, Cardona (Nicolas) began construction of the three frigates, the San Antonio, San Francisco, and the San Diego in late 1614. Although the expedition was prepared to sail in January 1615, news reached Mexico of a planned entry to the Pacific of a Dutch fleet under Joris van Spillbergen, which threatened Acapulco. Cardona (Nicolas) and his men were thus ordered to aid in the defense of the port under the command of Lieutenant General Melchor Fernandez de Cordoba; however, with the apparent threat over on March 21st, Cardona (Nicolas) set sail for the Gulf of California with his soldiers, divers, and two Franciscan priests. (pg 15 of Tomas' book)

If a noted historian like Dr. Mathes called them frigates, then I'm pretty sure they were... But just like everyone else who followed this yarn, I also thought that the ships were caravels. But let's not stop there, because with a little further research I found that for the early Spaniards, the term "frigate" was given to a multitude of ships, and basically meant the smallest of the larger class of ships, like the galleons. Besides, if Cardona was commanded to aid in protecting Acapulco, what kind of defense would a caravel provide? A frigate would surely be the type of vessel one would want to help fight off a pirate... Or even for a pirate to capture.

Tomas Cardona funded the operation, but it was Nicolas Cardona who made the trip, and had the ships built, to my knowledge Tomas never set foot in New Spain, in regards to the voyages with Iturbe...



This is why I posted this thread, to see if anyone has any type of actual REAL New Spain records that shows who built the ships in Acapulco, meaning the ship builders not who paid for it, and what kind of ships were built in late 1614 for Nicolas Cardona... I'm not saying there are caravels or frigates, until I can find the records, if there are any available... Sorry, but I can't use anything Wikipedia or other info newer net sources would provide, the real proof is at the National Archives in Mexico City.. I hope...

 

[seekerGH]

Sorry, none of what I had posted was from Wiki...wiki states the same as what you posted, that frigates were constructed.

The initial post provided reference from 3 other books. In these references, it is stated that a group 1616. Mar.3. Sevilla. Tomas de Cardona, Sancho de Meras, and Maria lopes de la Paraya. (1) headed by Tomas Cardona had the vessels built in Acapulco, (for reference, he is listed as a Sevillian) The Island of California: A History of the Myth A Collection Of Authentic, Useful, and Entertaining Voyages and ..., Volume 3 North American Exploration
That is why I suggested that you look for information in that direction. Follow the money, as it is likely more record of the person who paid for, and owned the vessels, rather than the Captains.

19. 1616. Mar.3. Sevilla. Tomás de Cardona, Sancho de Meras, y María Lopes de la Paraya.
Poder de los duefios del asiento de la pesqa de perlas en La California Ajos Capes.Nicolas de Cardona, Juan de Yturbe y Po.alvarez de Rosales.
O. 15pp. 1. 67-3-27. Acc.35.

20. 1617. Informacion que se hio acerca de haverse gastado en la fabrica de los vajeles que se hicieron en el Puerto de acapulco mas de 4000 ps. y en lo que costaron los otros bajeles (sobre qe se fundo este asiento) que salieron de espana pa las indias y mar del norte ano de 613 y 14. [Concerns the pearl fisheries of the Thomas de Cardona company, and deals largely with the Californias]. Cer. eipp.l. 67-3-28. Acc.35.

His nephew Nicolas Cardona, Iturbe, and de Rosales were in charge of the expedition. Also note that after the capture of the San Francisco, Cardona went inland, Iturbe and de Rosales remained in command of the remaining 2 vessels.

Cross reference to Spilbergen, who captured the San Francisco. One can be certain that if it were an armed frigate, Speilbergen would have noted this, but he called it a pearl boat as well. Not conclusive, but certainly noteworthy. North to California: The Spanish Voyages of Discovery, 1533-1603

There was the next adventure by Nicolas Cardona, where frigates were built. I suspect this is where the differnce is from.

25. 1622. [Before August]. Mexico. Niculas de Cardona and Luis de Medina. Obligon. de Cappan.niculas de Cardona y Luis de medina porque por 2 mil

• 500 ps. Paga a fin de JuUio deste ano para la pezqa.de perlas en la California.
Cer. 4pp.l. 67-3-27. Acc.35.

26. 1627. June 25. [Mexico]. Nicolas de Cardona to the Marqs.de la Hinojosa.
Pide se nombre persona aquien pueda advertir Lo que conbiene para seguridad dela plata que vaja a panama y para la de las naos que bajan a Acapulco paraque se libren del Conocido Riezgo que tiene del enemigo A quien dar Cuenta de un largo y dilatado Reyno quea descubierto alamar del sur cerca de La nueba espana abundante de minas de plata, oro, perlas y otras cossas de balor paraque se agregue a la Real Corona de V.Exc.
Or. 2pp.2. 67-3-27. Acc.35.

Ref: (1) Catalogue of Materials in Archivo General de Indias

 

[seekerGH]

fixed some of the verbiage, just a few letters and it makes much more sense...

Informacion que se hizo acerca de haberse gastado en la fabrica de los bajeles que se hicieron en el Puerto de acapulco mas de 4000 ps. y en lo que costaron los otros bajeles

<Information made about the factory have been spent on the vessels that were made in the port of Acapulco over 4000 ps. and what they cost other vessels>

Note that this is Tomas Cardona complaining about the price of the vessels. I think this would be the document to review in earnest.

EDIT: perhaps someone could advise on what 4000 ps was worth in the day?

Time for you and your group to look at paying for information.

 

[pegleglooker]

Hi seekerGH, there seems to me more to the story than expected, I would like to talk to you more about this so I sent you a private message, if you're willing..

Thx
PLL