1715 Fleet Kang Hsi Porcelain question...

[PhipsFolly]

1715 Fleet Kang H'si Porcelain question...

Has anyone working the 1715 Fleet wrecks or beach hunting found any 3 color Kang H'si (xi) porcelains with Gold gilding or the "egg and spinach" colored porcelains?

I have a friend who has been a treasure salvor on the 1715 Fleet wrecks for a very long time and he has found some of both types alin with the typical blue and white on one particular stretch of beach inshore from a 1715 wreck...

I am not looking for details on where... Just wondering if anyone else has found these types of porcelain examples...

 

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[Trez]

Phips,
Post an example, we may be able to come up with enough pieces to put one of the items back together

Trez

 

[ScubaFinder]

Hey Mike,

I found 3 different varieties several years back after a nor'easter (within a mile of Walton Rocks). One was typical Kang Hsi blue on white, another was blue on white, but it was thicker red clay instead of porcelien (Dutch I think, I've heard it called Majolica Ware or something like that). The 3rd was porcelain, but had green painting instead of blue. It was a floral design, but I don't have any pictures. It was in a cigar box full of pottery, musket balls, and other beach finds that was stolen off of a boat 5 years ago. Not sure if that helps without any evidence, but I did find some of the green near the southern 1715 lease areas.

 

[PhipsFolly]

Hey thanks for your response guys... Trez, I will get a few pics and post them here either later this evening or tomorrow. I know that you have found quite a few Kang H'si shards over the years as you have mentioned that in previous threads and from what it sounds like, you may have found some of the varieties I mentioned... Very cool as the red, blue and gold gilded (Chinese imari type) and the red, green, and gold types were first made in 1700 so the examples that are coming from the 1715 Fleet would be among the first pieces exported of this type.

 

[PhipsFolly]

ScubaFinder,

Thanks for your input... Sorry that you had the box of goodies stolen from you man... I too have learned the hard way that if the opportunity presents and things on your boat aren't "nailed down" they have a tendency to disappear.

The majolica type wares are really cool to find as they tend to be earlier pieces and are of European old world manufacture from what I have read... Not of Far East provenance. The Chinese porcelains with green designs would be in the right time frame for what I mentioned, possibly earlier than 1700...

I have an intact Chinese Imari Tea Bowl that I recovered from the erroded dune line years back just inshore from a 1715 wrecksite, but was just curious if anyone else had any finds of this type...
Thanks for your help guys... It sounds like these pieces are coming up on more than one particular 1715 site.

 

[PhipsFolly]

Trez... Here is an example of the 3 Color Gold Gilded Imari type Chinese Kang H'si (xi) porcelain that I am inquiring about. This dates to circa 1700 and came from one of the 1715 Fleet sites - beach recovery several years back.

I have seen other porcelain shards of this type found by other treasure hunters from the same site as I found mine... "Cannon Pile Wreck" area. Just wanted to know if anyone else might have found this type of Kang H'si porcelain from other 1715 fleet wrecks... either water or beach recoveries... or if this material is unique to the Cannon Pile Wreck.

 

[Trez]

Phips,

I looked in my pile and all I could come up was this style, found just south of green cabin. I have found your typical blue/white, solid white, solid black both sides variety. None with any RED. Here is the closest I have.
I have seen your style before but it was earlier than Kang H'si.

Keep yours eyes on the sand...Scott

Mine may not even be period piece, never checked.
`

 

[PhipsFolly]

Hi Trez... Thanks for your response. I am not sure, but I don't think that the pieces with the green leaves are period pieces nor Chinese porcelain... Looks more like later or even more modern material. I know of two other beach hunters who have found the same Blue, Red, and Gold Kang H'si Imari as mine in the same area of the Cannon Pile wreck as I have, but so far I haven't heard of any coming up on any of the other 1715 Fleet sites... This could be an interesting study as to why this type of porcelain seems to be only in this ship!

 

[mad4wrecks]

Was just sent this rather relevant link on Facebook. (Florida Public Archaeology Network-Northeast region)

Not many people are aware the differences between ceramics and porcelain and china. All varieties can be found along the Florida east coast.

Going Public: "What Is It" Wednesday: Open Book Majolica Quiz

 

[stevemc]

If you go to Tom's link, then go their link, and scroll down to Chinese Imari, you will see a lot of pieces just like yours found in various locations. Nice link Tom!

 

[Au_Dreamers]

I have this picture but do not know the source of the "china". If I were to guess I would say Douglas Beach.

 

[PhipsFolly]

Thanks for the references guys...

Au_Dreamers, that shard on the edge of the table/center with the red and blue designs looks like Imari... where was this photo taken? And what makes you think these were found at Douglas beach?

 

[PhipsFolly]

Just an update on this 3 color porcelain find...

I really appreciate the input of those who responded to this thread. After much research and speaking with several individuals who are extremely knowledgeable on Chinese porcelains and shipwrecks, it has been determined that this cup is definately a period correct artifact, most certainly could be from the 1715 Fleet (which was obvious from where I found it), and is very rare according to an email received from Bob Marx through an inquiry from the McLarty State Treasure Museum. Bob himself has found the very same type of porcelain on some of the wrecks he has worked over the years (and also in the sunken city of Port Royal, Jamaica)and was very excited about this find... hoping to show it to him in person next time he visits the museum. The museum has requested that I provide them with some photos for their "Recent 1715 Fleet Finds" book and I decided to give them a few, so if anyone would like to see some pics of this beautiful cup found after Hurricane Sandy and are in the area of the museum, stop in... the pics will be in their book. (I chose not to post any pics here because this cup may be in an up and coming book about shipwrecks and porcelains and the author requested that I not circulate any pics of it in a public forum until the book is completed at a later date).

 

[elle]

Hi Mike,

While going through 1715 Fleet material, I spotted reference to your tri-color “Chinese Imari” porcelain containing gold gilt. I spent some time investigating not only for my own case study, but because a mutual friend of ours (who is such a wonderful person) speaks very highly of you. I hope to help you out, but if you find this information not useful, please disregard it.

I’m sure you already know the history behind your vessel, so I’ll quickly sum it up in two sentences. Oriental porcelain appearing with overglaze of red, gold, yellow, and green on an underglaze of blue-and-white porcelain originally began in Japan where it was called “Old Imari.” When this Japanese ware became highly successful in exportation around 1660, the Chinese potters quickly learned the decorative technique for their overseas trading business.

What is interesting from archaeological reports is that Japanese porcelain (containing this particular art method) discovered on Hispanic sites dated between the years of 1660 to 1750. Chinese porcelain from Spanish sites, on the other hand, fell in the time range of 1700 to 1750.

Sifting through old data from all sites of the 1715 wrecks, the only place where your specific Chinese porcelain was found and documented was at the Higgs site. From all the 1715 salvagers I’ve interviewed over the years about different porcelain, majolica, and earthenware, the Cannon Wreck is the only location to reveal the overglaze Chinese Imari.

This porcelain type, seemingly dating only from the first half of the 18[SUP]th[/SUP]century, has shown up in many other Spanish settlements, including the 1733 Fleet wrecks. But I believe your piece is quite rare and extremely valuable because it was one of the first pieces of its kind to be shipped from China during that time period.

PM me if you need my references.
Laura

 

[PhipsFolly]

Hi Elle... Thanks so much for your research and input with regards to this porcelain. My research efforts had revealed basically the exact same information that you found, but I definately appreciate your response.

I was not aware that any of this type of porcelain had been found at the Higgs Dig site... when you mentioned this fact, my immediate thought was that the Higgs site was close enough in proximity to both the Cabin and the Cannon Pile sites that this porcelain could have come from either one... but from your interviews with other 1715 Fleet salvagers and the lack of any further responses on here from other salvors with regards to finding any Imari at the other wrecksites, I think it is safe to say that your statement is probably quite accurate in narrowing this down to just the Cannon Pile Wreck... very interesting.

I have also heard great things about you (from our mutual friend, among others) and am looking forward to reading your book you were working on about the Religious aspects of the 1715 Fleet and the Jesuit Priests. I believe our mutual friend has told you about my two large (pectoral sized) ornate bronze Caravaca Cross's that were recovered back in the early 1960's from the Survivors encampment at the Cabin Wreck site... they were both recovered right near the Spanish well that was later found "again" on the site supposedly by Kip Wagners dog. Unfortunately I had to sell one to pay some bills, but kept the nicer of the two in my collection. I was wondering if they may have belonged to the two Jesuits that you believe may have been murdered in the encampment area. I would love to hear more about your research on this!

Thanks again for your help and love to speak in person sometime soon... best, Phips

 

[PhipsFolly]

Elle... I did some asking around and I had no idea the value of this rare Chinese Imari cup! I have been told that it would sell between $2500 - $3500 due to its rarity, 1715 Fleet provenance, and the fact that it is still intact and has the gold gilding still present! That find was worth my efforts after Hurricane Sandy!

 

[Southern_Digger]

If possible, you might want to obtain a copy of the archeological report of the Power Plant Water Tank site near Walton Rocks. I was supposed to manage that survey for an Engineering firm for which I worked many years ago. However, I turned it down for two reasaons. 1) because I was told by the powers-to-be (not the site owner) how I was to write the report and regardless of what was found, the project would go forth. 2) I was overburdened with directing the Ft. Jupiter-Loxahatchee Battlefield explorations and surveys. It was common knowledge that Ais evidence existed on the site near the power plant. I don't know who landed the project, but it is possible some historical context was found there, including European ceramics.

 

[mad4wrecks]

In May, 2010, Sonographics, Inc. of Ft. Lauderdale, Florida (Sonographics) conducted an
intensive remote sensing survey of a proposed offshore artificial reef and breakwater site to
protect the St. Lucie Nuclear Power Plant Facility. Covering an area 800 ft. north and 1,200 ft.
south of the plant’s discharge canal and 2,000 ft. east of Mean High Water (Figure 2), the survey
was performed to address compliance with the National Historic Preservation Act of 1966, as
amended (PL 89-665), the Archeological and Historic Preservation Act, as amended (PL 93-
291), the Abandoned Shipwreck Act of 1987, and the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation
revised 36 CFR Part 800 Regulations. This work was also conducted in compliance with Section
276.12, Florida Statues, Chapter 1A-32 and 46 of the Florida Administrative Code.

In order to comply with FPL’s responsibilities towards cultural resources, Panamerican
Consultants, Inc. of Memphis, Tennessee, was subcontracted by Morgan & Eklund, Inc. of
Wabasso, Florida, to conduct a comprehensive cultural resources analysis of the remote sensing
survey data obtained by Sonographics, and to produce a report of its findings. The survey,
analysis, and report production were performed under Florida 1A-32 Permit No. 0910.88.

Comprised of a magnetometer, sidescan sonar, and a subbottom profiler survey, a total of 16
magnetic anomalies, seven sidescan sonar targets, and no subbottom impedance contrast features
were recorded during the current survey. Special attention was paid to smaller targets and targets
appearing in clusters due to the high probability of the survey area to contain historic resources
in the form of shipwrecks. The survey area is in close proximity to the locations of several of the
wrecks from the Spanish treasure fleet of 1715.

Nine of the anomalies and four of the sidescan sonar targets were recommended for further
investigation as part of two clusters with debris-field characteristics often associated with wreck
sites in high energy locations (Tables 8 and 9). No impedance contrasts or buried landforms
were noted in the subbottom data. The two clusters and separate associated anomaly and
sidescan target are recommended for further investigation by divers. In addition to the two
clusters, a sidescan sonar target and an associated magnetic anomaly were also recommended for
avoidance or further investigation (Table 10). It is recommended that these target locations be
avoided by project activities. If avoidance is not possible, it is recommended that these targets
be investigated by qualified marine archaeologists and assessed as to their historical value.


Cheers, Tom

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Tom I wonder if it's debris from the old Pier. Looks to be about the proper location.