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In post #25 I showed that a possible meaning for the M at a cache site could be something to do with a key. So far we have a possible connection between the heart, the owl and the M.

There have been many times that I have read posts where a Tnet member says he thinks he(or she) has found an ancient site that may have also been used by the Spanish and much later by the KGC. If by ancient they mean traders or explorers from the Old World, I think we might have shown that the owl, the heart and the M could have been used at such a site.
 

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Mdog, the owl seems to be a key point for a treasure. I have seen owls set on a false base(empty lol). I have have seen a hole above just a few feet from a pair of owls(empty). I have found a possible dt several hundred feet directly below a owl(full). There was a pair of signs in the same area of a woman. The woman, heart, owl, and other signs always seem present together. You cant hide stuff from me lol. While the dog and elephant also seem a key sign, birds are always present. While I may take heat for adding this, its the abnormal sign you will find alone that marks the spot. Some holes are marked and some are not. Just my 2 cents. The signs themselves are not as important as how they are displayed and grouped.
 

Casca said:
Mdog, the owl seems to be a key point for a treasure. I have seen owls set on a false base(empty lol). I have have seen a hole above just a few feet from a pair of owls(empty). I have found a possible dt several hundred feet directly below a owl(full). There was a pair of signs in the same area of a woman. The woman, heart, owl, and other signs always seem present together. You cant hide stuff from me lol. While the dog and elephant also seem a key sign, birds are always present. While I may take heat for adding this, its the abnormal sign you will find alone that marks the spot. Some holes are marked and some are not. Just my 2 cents. The signs themselves are not as important as how they are displayed and grouped.
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Thanks Casca. I thought your best owl picture looked like it was high on a mountain. It was a good one. What kind of woman signs do you see? Would they be colonial or ancient figures?
 

Quinoa said:
The little rock being pointed out looks like a small tombstone with a #3 on it, but it is hard to tell for sure in just a single picture. It might be giving the shape of the final stone or one to measure from, but I think it is just saying the eye is pointing out that a burial is amidst. I never have fully figured out why the #3 on most sites. I think it is a symbol rather than a number. It may be a distance symbol.
There is also a tiny heart just below that in line where the beak is pointing. but all these are tiny signs and are doing little more than verifying a cache site. A guy named Minetres posted some stuff a while back on the turtle. I'd take his advise. I have one with no legs, head pointing up , huge body, little head, and rock wedged in it's mouth.
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Is your turtle, with its head pointing up, at the bottom of a bluff?
 

Quinoa said:
The little rock being pointed out looks like a small tombstone with a #3 on it, but it is hard to tell for sure in just a single picture. It might be giving the shape of the final stone or one to measure from, but I think it is just saying the eye is pointing out that a burial is amidst. I never have fully figured out why the #3 on most sites. I think it is a symbol rather than a number. It may be a distance symbol.
There is also a tiny heart just below that in line where the beak is pointing. but all these are tiny signs and are doing little more than verifying a cache site. A guy named Minetres posted some stuff a while back on the turtle. I'd take his advise. I have one with no legs, head pointing up , huge body, little head, and rock wedged in it's mouth.
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Wow,very interesting Q, about the turtles head being up and a rock in it,because about 50 yards behind the mound of rocks where the turtle is on top,is a giant turtle head with rocks in its mouth,the eye could be looking at that or the mound,you can see to the right of the head,the natural uphill rise to what i believe is a man made rock mound with the turtle nesting on top,Great call. dont mean to get off track mdog, ill post a photo of a owl pointing out a shadow heart with its ear.:thumbsup:View attachment 1014835View attachment 1014836View attachment 1014837
 

thanks Q, i was floored when you brought up the turtle with the rock in its mouth, i was like son of a gun, there's one here by the turtle on top,would you happen to know what time frame it was done?, its ok if you dont want to say.thanks.
 

Quinoa said:
I don't believe they were all originally turtles. You may notice many of the full bodied ones will face solar equinox lines. Sun worshippers made them. Someone else changed them to turtles. But I don't think it was the Spanish in many cases. Some were probably supposed to be beetles at one time. It's pretty noticeable on a few I have.
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You must be talking about the scarab. Who do you think changed them to turtles.
 

Quinoa said:
Mdog, It's actually on top of a small bluff down in a hard to access canyon. It has some other things near it as well.
Like for one, well there are a couple 3-4 foot tall letters by it. Capitol O, R, O. or something oddball like that. Probably means to go a couple leagues in some direction, right?

Anyways, I like your research. I spent several years researching the same type of stuff. Time well spent.
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Quinoa, I have a question about the ORO. Are the two O letters round or square? I know that sounds dumb but I've seen a squared O used in OR, which is French for ORO, and I been wondering if that had some type of meaning, other than, a square O is easier to carve.
 

DTH, thanks for posting the pictures. You always have good stuff. :thumbsup:
 

Quinoa said:
One O is roundish, the other O square, the R is blocky like cut from a square shape. I 've seen other ones that are squarish, and some are more rounded O's with a cursive R. They don't really tell anything on what to do, although sometimes there is a line thru one of the o's maybe giving a direction to go on a compass, and sometimes the R means something. They are usually by other important markers like Owls and such though. There is an owl by the one I spoke of. They could be probably be used for a private cache spot somewhere, but not at my sites. These are all just points on a mapped layout. Some were probably old tomb locations. Some of the hoyos around were probably originally for them to release the spirits in the afterlife.. but are now modified to use for trails.
And yes you have the correct beetle. From what I have come to understand, things were altered and destroyed as such according to the Old Testament. The rock in the mouth is also a way to desecrate something if you understand the religious practices and ceremonies a culture had performed. You mentioned one tool used for an ancient type ceremony which was performed on various statues that represented the Gods they worshipped. I have rocks stuck in the mouths of other things. Some say it means an entrance is plugged with a boulder, which may be, but not every thing was intended to be a treasure sign.
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Thanks Quinoa. Have you ever found any ancient hieroglyphs on one of these scarabs? Also, in some of Roger Snow's posts, he speaks of Tanit monuments in the southwest, I think he said a pyramid shaped rock with a round rock on top of it. Have you ever seen anything like this?
 

Quinoa said:
Most of that stuff has long since eroded away or been chipped off. Most carvings they just did shadow stuff, it was easier to achieve an image with the harder mediums normally available. They used some type of paint though , and sometimes you can see the Lichens or moss growing where something was. Remove the lichens or moss and you will see nothing. This is even true with some Spanish stuff, although they actually scraped the moss and lichens to make stuff. Pretty easy way to do it, and after a few years it looks pretty natural except from a distance.

As for the tanit, I've seen what looks like keyholes, or crystal ball symbols. A couple near a place they wanted you to dig at judging from the "dig here" signs. Bad place. The place still leaves me sick to my stomach, because I was just learning how read signs and was going to dig there. Everything I had heard about the keyhole symbol even encouraged me it was good spot. If I had 10 guys spread out and helping me, it would have killed them all. Because fortunately, I looked around the spot from every angle on the trip I was going to bust into what looked like a mortared and bricked up entrance. I was pretty confident it was the right spot. It was along a cliff that was creviced out behind it from top to bottom for about 20 linear feet with all the weight of the cliff resting on the given dig spot. On a better note there were things on top of the cliff near the crevise pointing out better places to go.
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That's a real good story, Quinoa. Not too many people talk about this stuff or do the research.

You mentioned that there was some type of paint they used. Here's a picture of an image on the wall of a bluff. I've posted it before on other threads but I've never been able to find anybody who has seen anything similar. There is no lichen on it and looking at it, in normal sunlight, it is barely perceptible. But when I hit it with the flash from my camera, the image is very clear. It almost looks like something was used to make the outline of the image and then fill in the features. You ever seen anything like this?

149.jpg
 

Quinoa said:
Most of that stuff has long since eroded away or been chipped off. Most carvings they just did shadow stuff, it was easier to achieve an image with the harder mediums normally available. They used some type of paint though , and sometimes you can see the Lichens or moss growing where something was. Remove the lichens or moss and you will see nothing. This is even true with some Spanish stuff, although they actually scraped the moss and lichens to make stuff. Pretty easy way to do it, and after a few years it looks pretty natural except from a distance.

As for the tanit, I've seen what looks like keyholes, or crystal ball symbols. A couple near a place they wanted you to dig at judging from the "dig here" signs. Bad place. The place still leaves me sick to my stomach, because I was just learning how read signs and was going to dig there. Everything I had heard about the keyhole symbol even encouraged me it was good spot. If I had 10 guys spread out and helping me, it would have killed them all. Because fortunately, I looked around the spot from every angle on the trip I was going to bust into what looked like a mortared and bricked up entrance. I was pretty confident it was the right spot. It was along a cliff that was creviced out behind it from top to bottom for about 20 linear feet with all the weight of the cliff resting on the given dig spot. On a better note there were things on top of the cliff near the crevise pointing out better places to go.
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When you found the things on top of the bluff, did you see any stone columns or stone chairs? With my question about the Tanit monument, you probably know where I'm going here.
 

 

Bob 632, thanks for the links. It seems there were a lot of the ancient goddesses associated with the owl. I'd like to find a real solid link between the owl and Astarte, but I haven't had much luck. I'll keep looking. It seems the owl was popular during the Minoan civilization on Crete but I haven't seen whether it was associated with one of their gods.
 

Quinoa said:
Bob, I don't see much for petroglyph type markings at the places I go, I don't know why. I see them down in other places along area rivers though. Some of the monuments and other markers have shading and color added in weird way though. Certain lichens are different colors. It's pretty wild really. Gold, orange/red/white/black. The white ones were used a lot as dots or eyes on dark rocks.

Mdog, there is actually a throne visible from that place, a little ways off though.
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Thanks Quinoa. Here's an excerpt about the symbolism of the empty throne in association with the Phoenicians.

"Deities were often represented in Phoenicia by an empty throne (Fig. 2), known as ‘Astarte Thrones’, believed to have been the focal point of most Phoenician sanctuaries in the later Iron Age. These thrones often have a betyl (standing stone) or a religious symbol (moon crescent, sun disc) to represent the particular deity. Libation scenes are also represented on these thrones."

Here's the link.

http://www.medinaproject-epigraphy.eu/en-us/inscriptions/phoenician.aspx
 

A High Place, (Hebrew bamot or bamah) was a raised altar or hilltop shrine in ancient Israelite and Canaanite times described as existing from the patriarchs period through at least the sixth century B.C.E. and beyond. High places consisted of a stone or earthen altar, often accompanied by a stone or wooden pillar symbolizing the presence of a deity, and sometimes a sacred tree. High places near major settlements sometimes evolved into formal temples.

Poverty Point, La.

Some archeologists have interpreted Poverty Point as having religious symbolism and importance. A posthole discovered in the central plaza showed that a large post was possibly erected there. The archaeologist Professor William Haag, who excavated at the site during the 1970s, interpreted this post as having astronomical significance in being aligned to the solstices. Examples of wooden post astronomical circles, since called Woodhenge, have been found and reconstructed at the Mississippian culture site of Cahokia in western Illinois. However, the astronomer Robert Purrington believes the posts at Poverty Point were geometrically,rather than astronomically, aligned.[SUP][26][/SUP] Researchers have also studied historic and contemporary Native American religious beliefs for parallels, with many noting that the west is seen as the direction of evil and death. Gibson believed that the rings were built with their arcs against the west to keep malevolent spirits out of the complex.[SUP][27][/SUP]
 

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For decades, scholars have been unable to reconcile the two seemingly divergent roles that Asherah plays in the ancient texts.
While the Ugaritic literature describes her in relation to the sea, the Hebrew accounts associate her with groves of trees in the mountains. The Old Testament declares that the Canaanite goddess was identi-fied with – or as –asherim, wooden shafts or poles planted into the ground and regarded as a tangible form of the goddess. Additionally, the masts of the merchant vessels that expanded Near Eastern trade products, ideas and religion westward were consistently constructed from a single cedar tree, which may have had the same form and function as ‘Asherah poles’, with the added utility of harnessing the wind to propel the ship through the water. In order to prosper as a seafaring people, Phoenicians needed to control the natural elements that Asherah-Tanitpersonified: cedar wood to make ships to traverse the sea, guided by atmospheric forces across the sea to establish a trading enterprise. As the marine archaeologist F.M. Hocker emphasises, analysing ship material allows the voices of ancient mariners to be heard, so that they can inform us as to ‘who they were and why they built their boats and ships the way they did … and how they organized their perceptions of the physical world’.

The Goddess, the Sea and the Trees

Many have argued for the absence of any distinction between sacred/secular in regards to maritime trading ventures, especially in the ancient world.Material wealth was amassed in Phoenicia by expanding westward across the Mediterranean, and few scholars would dispute the reputation as merchants and seafarers that Phoenicians held amongst their contemporaries. They were able to accomplish these material pursuits by utilising the physical environment of the Levant and the Mediterranean Sea – the trees, the winds, the currents and ample access to a long coastline with plenty of viable harbours. Like sailors of many cultures past and pre-sent, Phoenician mariners consulted relevant deities for protection during marine embarkation, all along the voyage from one port to another. In order to control the environmental aspects that dictated their success or failure, Asherah-Tanit was one of the divine powers to be appeased and pacified. In gratitude for successful journeys, temples and shrines to celebrate those deified marine forces were erected along the Mediterranean coastlines, upon natural coastal promontories or harbours, as a sort of spiritual lighthouse enhanced by (or enhancing) a geological feature.

http://www.academia.edu/1819367/_She_Who_Treads_on_Water_Sacred_Secular_in_Phoenician_Religion
 

This excerpt is from a history of the Omaha Tribe.

So great were the requirements demanded of a man for admission
to the Ho n/ hewachi that the successful candidate was said to have
been "pitied" (compassionately helped) "by Night," as otherwise he
could not have accomplished the tasks required. The symbols tat
tooed on the girl were designated xthexe, an untranslatable name
meaning a mark of honor or of distinction. It will be remem
bered that the Sacred Pole (see p. 219) was called Waxihe xe, signi
fying "that which has the power to bestow honor or distinction."
The Sacred Pole, as its name implies, was representative of the
authority which was the fount of honor in the tribe. Permission to
place this mark of honor on a girl had to be given by the Seven
Chiefs, as well as by the members of the Ho n/ hewachi. The Ho n he-
wachi is claimed to be very old and in connection with this claim it
should be remembered that the ancient name of the Cedar Pole (see
p. 219) was Waxthe xe, and that the name of this ancient and sacred
object, w r hose ceremonies had become lost, was transferred to the
new Sacred Pole when the latter emblem was set up in the interests
of tribal unity and stability of government. The ancient pole
of cedar, according to tradition and myth, was allied to ceremonies
connected with Thunder and with the creation of the human race.
It was kept, as was the Sacred Shell, in the Sacred Tent in charge
of the We zhi n shte gens. According to traditions and beliefs, the
rites pertaining to the Shell were connected with the cosmic forces
which brought the universe into being and maintained its life.
While it is impossible clearly to trace connection between the Ho n/ he-
wachi and the ceremonies that once clustered about the ancient Cedar
Pole and the Sacred Shell, yet the name given to the mark of honor,
(xthexe), the symbols used, and the sex of the person on whom they
must be tattooed, as well as the name of the society to which they
belonged, all afford a strong probability that the ancient cosmic
rites, long since lost, were related to the Ho n/ hewachi, if they do not
in part survive in the ceremonies of this society, ceremonies which



FLETCHER-LA l- LKSCHE] SOCIETIES 495

in songs and symbols refer to the creative cosmic forces typified by
night and day, the earth and the sky, forces which were also repre
sented in the fundamental ideas on which the tribal organization
rested.
 

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