Attention Gold Hawg...Gold Bird Find

[itmaiden]

To the crew of Gold Hawg.

The gold bird object you found had looked to me more like an 1800's piece. What do you have to verify it is 1715 ? The work looks similar to the artistry of a French bronzer known as Jean Baptiste Dubuc. Is it possible that your piece came from a British, French, or Early American ship ?

Dubuc is know somewhat for his design work for clocks. The piece you have looks somewhat like some of his decorative pieces he designs to sit on the top of clocks, or it could have had a small clock inside of it by the appearance.

I would recommend finding a specialist in Dubuc and having the piece re-evaluated.

itmaiden

 

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[itmaiden]

Look at the bottom figure on this clock:

http://www.christies.com/lotfinderimages/d50268/d5026855r.jpg

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...N&rlz=1T4ADSA_enUS333US344&ndsp=20&tbs=isch:1

Notice the clock sits on the back of the arched spine.

itmaiden

1) the artifact was found on an established 1715 shipwreck site where many objects of the same time period have been recovered

2) Jean Baptiste Dubuc was a bronzier and there is no indication he ever worked with gold.

3) All of the examples of his clocks that I could find show a bronze eagle as opposed to a gold pelican or phoenix.

4) There is no doubt Bonnie's artifact is a religious item tied to the catholic church.

 

[Skimmer]

IT Maid:
If you were in anyway familiar with the Nieves (Colored Beach) recovery area....You would realize that no 1800's artifacts have been recovered for the past 40 plus years of diligent salvage there by some of the best in the trade. (and I helped). There is an early 1900's remnant of a coastwise steamboat up in the mangrove swamp in the shoreline there....but nothing suggesting any 1800's era ship loss.
Mike

 

[Alexandre]

Speaking as an archaeologist, this artifact, found within no dated context at all, could be from anything you would like it to be - that is, until you find a paralel. Itmaiden has a valid point.

Now, you just need to find the data to backup any of these theories.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

I'm sure it's not the only artifact that has been found at the wreck site to help date the 1715 fleet ....There was a reason they were searching in this area....

 

[GOHO]

The Gold Bird is definitely from a 1715 shipwreck.... It was found in an area where hundreds upon hundreds of gold coins dated from the 1715 era have been recovered along with rings and other jewelry in a debris trail that is clearly coming from the main part of the wreck. Now, i do not believe that the wreck it was recovered on is the Nieves but it is absolutely 100% 1715!

 

[captbonnie]

Speaking as an archaeologist, this artifact, found within no dated context at all, could be from anything you would like it to be - that is, until you find a paralel. Itmaiden has a valid point.

Now, you just need to find the data to backup any of these theories.

The "context": as Greg pointed out is a debris trail from the main wrecksite. Gold coins with the provenance established by mint marks, assayers, and dates were found less than 60' from where the bird was recovered. This summer we found K'ang Hsi and olive jar shards in the same area and a 1630 maravedi.
Other gold items of equivalent workmanship - the Holden reliquary and the gold filigree frame were found on the same trail.
The bird has a definite pattern on its breast - this is the pattern of the vulning of the pelican - the closest other symbolism is that of the phoenix and the sacred heart

Keep the input coming - discussion is good and I enjoyed the photos of the bronze work , however the eagle appears quite different and I believe the scatter pattern and years and years of research does give us a "context". The name of the ship itself I don't know - the Nieves is a popular theory. I believe the 1715 id is supported by the artifacts and the research.

I worked with Harold Holden on the 1810 site which is concentrated near the Inlet - 2 miles north- one gold coin was recovered there - not a cob. No olive jar or K'ang Hsi and the ballast material is different. The coins on that wreck were portrait dollars, milled, and quite different from the silver and gold cobs found on the Douglas Beach site. The data there points to an 1800's wreck and shipwreck reports show four ships lost near the Inlet in 1810.

Alexandre, it is my wish that we contribute to the research and the knowledge with everything we recover. I am constantly aware of how much we don't know about the exact events of these wrecks - I think all the time about what happened, the wind , the ships, the way they broke up. Every piece brought up is important. I don't deny that there is still a "mystery" to the bird and we have no description or provenance that is written in stone, but the details and clues we must continue to gather and put together;
Thanks again all for your input.

 

[Alexandre]

Do you have dates on those coins?

 

[Darren in NC]

...found in an area where hundreds upon hundreds of gold coins dated from the 1715 era have been recovered...

I think the evidence is overwhelming.