1715 fleet pop quiz

[Chagy]

1715 fleet Pop Quiz

#1. Is it worth to keep hunting the 1715 wrecks and why?

#2.How many vessels do you think were traveling with the fleet's? Explain why.

#3. Which vessels do you think have been found and what is the known area of the wreck location?

#4. Which of the missing wrecks would you try to find and why?

I'm sure this is going to be interesting.....

 

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[SebastianSam]

#1. Is it worth to keep hunting the 1715 wrecks and why?
Yes. On the capitana alone, there are about 300 chests of coins unaccounted for. Do the math. At a conservative $100.00 per coin (if you didn't flood the market), that is 90 million. And despite claims by Weller, and the wonderful stuff from Luke's Trench, the Queen's Jewels have not been found. Maybe that is because the ship they were actually on has not been found.

#2.How many vessels do you think were traveling with the fleet's? Explain why.
In the combined fleet of ubilla and Escheverz, 12, including the Grifon, which survived. The documents are quite clear on this, to me anyway. People want to keep adding extra ships, but can offer no proof.

#3. Which vessels do you think have been found and what is the known area of the wreck location?
None of them, not a single one, have been positively identified. It is all speculation. The Cabin wreck, Corrigans, Rio Mar, Sandy Point, Pepper Park and Douglass Beach are all 1715 for sure. Hopefully the state of Florida will loosen up so we all can see if Dave Jordan, HRD and HTQ do indeed have 1715 wrecks as well. I hope they do!

#4. Which of the missing wrecks would you try to find and why?
Tiger Shores has some goodies for sure. I missed Terry and Ivan's meeting. Would like to hear what Terry had to say about the "Andrews" site?

Sam I am

 

[ivan salis]

#1 heck yes mainly because theres a lot of unaccounted for items still missing that would be worth a lot of money

#2 very easy one --12 vessels total with the griffon included ---reason Admireal Salmon the fleets #2 man behind Ubilla (who would know exactly how many vessels were in the fleet ) in his report "of the fleet 9 vessels are wrecked and 2 are missing"--- he knew the french vessel griffon had got away and as it was not offically part of the fleet that he was "accountible for" he spoke not of it --least he be asked if the french vessel survived why did the spanish vessels not survive also.

#3 ---4 vessels went on a more northly track a day before the storm hit the fleet ( according to the account of the pilot major of the fleet at the hearing on the loss of the fleet)--the NAO SAN MIGUEL (MAINLY TABBACO AS CARGO) THE FRENCH PRIZE AKA "EL CIERVO" (96 TONS BRAZILWOOD --DYE WOOD) AND 2 SMALLER PATACHE CLASS VESSELS --- the other 7 vessels --the "bulk of the fleet" the main major treasure vessels hung together and wrecked in the known treasure area --- ps one of the vessels was a english bilander class vessel (accused of illegal trading and impounded) taken as a prize by echervez's pataches while he was in porto bello. --he took 3 prizes in all ( #1 the dutch prize SAN MIGUEL aka LA Holandesa / Olandesa /also maybe La Galera (class of vessel) #2 the french prize EL CIERVO aslo maybe known as La Galera ( class of vessel) #3 an english bilander reportedly 25% owned by govenor hamilton of jamica (maria galante? )* know as san miguel de excelsis under Echeverz and later sold to Ubilla came into havana short of small vessels due to the storm losses in Verzcruz and needing a small vessel -- Echerevz made a fast buck by selling it to Ubilla --thus Ubilla's "private" vessel was a english bilander

one site reportly is is a "bilander" with spanish silver on her -- it might be Ubilla's vessel or might be a english pirate or english poacher "treasure fisher" that got wrecked in a storm -- the bilander was a very common vessel in those days.

#4 any of the 4 "missing" wrecks because it would be an origional "new" claim -- and gold smuggling was rampent at the time.

extra credit time --the spotswood leeters says 11 sail were lost south of st augustine --it also say that a "rescue" vessel a barcalonga (60 ft single masted vessel) sent fron havana to the 1715 wreck site to fetch up VIPS and treasure --later on wrecked about 40 miles to the north of st augustine --ie "my nassau sound wreck "while not one of the "original" 1715 fleet was most likely loaded to the gills with VIP and royal treasure .

 

[billinstuart]

For questions 3&4:

They were all sailing within sight of each other. Some large galleons, some smaller ships. When first struck by the storm, they were blown toward the coast, still pretty much together as a group. They may have been capable of maybe 3-4 mph of through the water speed, plus the current. The hurricane is documented, crossing the Lower Bahamas. A powerful storm, moving at maybe 6-10 mph over the warm gulf stream current.

Now, which were least capable of surviving? Say, the smaller ships. Then, the lighter ships would be driven ashore first, which is southerly. Being lighter, they would cross the reefs and end up ashore. If this scenario is true, some may be south of, or around, the Nieves wreck, ashore. They also would have little if any ballast. Being ashore, the "red" ballast rock would be easily salvagable.

The heavier, bulky galleons? Then, the reverse would be true. The lighter ships would be ashore north of Sebastian, on the beach. Like Chucks?

Equally capable? Well, the Nieves and Sebastian Inlet are what, 40 miles apart? At 4 mph, that's 10 hours of sailing or fighting the storm. Would all have wrecked in that time period?

If they broke ranks and sailed in two groups, Ivans scenario is credible. That faster group would have been the lighter ships, with little ballast other than treasure.

I keep playing with the math..sailing at the pitifully slow speed they did, just how far could they have sailed in 6 days or so? How far could they have separated in the storm?

The wild card? What were the effects of the second hurricane 2 days later??

Bill

 

[wreckdiver1715]

#1. Is it worth to keep hunting the 1715 wrecks and why?

Yes, because some of the missing ships had registered treasure, and of course there is the un-registered treasure that was so common back in the day. Not to mention the Archeological value of any wreck from that time period.

#2.How many vessels do you think were traveling with the fleets? Explain why.

While there has been much controversy concerning the Griffon, and weather she made it back to port or not. Let’s just assume she made it home for the sake of argument. That leaves the 5 ships from General Ubilla’s Nueva Espana fleet, and the 6 ships from General Echeverz’s Tierra Firma fleet.

#3. Which vessels do you think have been found and what is the known area of the wreck location?

First I have to agree with Sebastian Sam, that none have been positively identified. However, I think that based on survivor reports we can be relatively sure about several of the ships and the locations. So, assuming conventional wisdom is correct. I will concede for the sake of this exercise, the following.
Neustria Senora de la Regla - Cabin Wreck, 2 miles south of Sebastian inlet
Urca de Lima aka Santissima Trinidad - Wedge Wreck, 1.5 miles south of Ft. Pierce inlet.
Neustria Senora de las Nieves – Colored Beach Wreck, 2.5 miles south of Ft. Pierce inlet.
Santa Crist de San Roman – Corrigan’s Wreck, Just south of Wabasso Beach
Neustria Senora del Carmen – Rio Mar Wreck, 900 feet off the first green Rio Mar Golf Course.
Neustria Senora del Rosario – Sandy Point Wreck, 500 feet off shore at Sandy Point.
Now comes the latest discovery off of Melbourne Beach. I am not yet willing to concede that a 1715 wreck has been discovered at this location. However, confidence is high that this target may indeed be one of the five missing 1715 ships. Time will tell, and we will have to wait until all the internal legal bickering is settled, so the boys can get back to work on recovery of this shipwreck.

#4. Which of the missing wrecks would you try to find and why?

I would hunt for all of them. Of course I would prioritize my search based on each ship’s cargo manifest. Unfortunately, General Echeverz’s fleet was carrying very little registered treasure, and most was loaded during July and August of 1714 in Cartighana.

Maria Galante – This is the only ship from General Ubilla’s fleet that has not yet been found. Ivan and I disagree on the origin of this ship. I believe this vessel was built in Cuba and purchased by General Ubilla for his own Merchant ship to carry tobacco back to Spain. There was but one survivor from this ship, and she carried no registered treasure.
Neustria Senora de la Concepcion – There were several survivors from this wreck that reportedly went down on the southern shoals of Cape Canaveral. This was Echeverz’s Capitana, and had some valuable treasure loaded aboard her.
El Senor San Miguel – Vanished at sea with no survivors, and little treasure will be found with this ship.
La Olandesa aka San Miguel – While this ship was never found, she is believed to be someplace between Rio Mar and Sandy Point. This Dutch ship was captured by General Echeverz in 1714 near Cartagena. She also carried little treasure.
El Cievro aka La Galleria – This was a French privateer that General Echeverz captured in the harbor at Porta Bella, and little treasure will be found with this wreck as well.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

So i get this right ,you say 6 have been found? Senora de la Regla - Cabin Wreck, 2 miles south of Sebastian inlet
Urca de Lima aka Santissima Trinidad - Wedge Wreck, 1.5 miles south of Ft. Pierce inlet.
Neustria Senora de las Nieves – Colored Beach Wreck, 2.5 miles south of Ft. Pierce inlet.
Santa Crist de San Roman – Corrigan’s Wreck, Just south of Wabasso Beach
Neustria Senora del Carmen – Rio Mar Wreck, 900 feet off the first green Rio Mar Golf Course.
Neustria Senora del Rosario – Sandy Point Wreck, 500 feet off shore at Sandy Point. .... I did find this info,not sure if its true or not...The Fishers have leases to 10 wrecks of the 1715 fleet, from Cape Canaveral south to the St. Lucie Nuclear Power Plant.

 

[ivan salis]

wreckdiver 1715

Echeverz wrote letters from the "real" of the Olandesa (salvage camp)--it was made from the upper deck works of the smallish dutch galera class vessel -which blew ashore after she hit bottom and the upper decks sheared off --and came ashore like a giant surfboard .--most likely it was not far from his treasure vessel as he would not go far from it , needless to say.

in book "the funnel of gold " -- it remarks that the spanish envoy sent to "talk" to with govenor hamilton about english raiders attacking the 1715 fleet wreck sites was well aware that govenor hamilton was in fact invovled in both illegal trading and backed pirating vessels (he was a 25% owner in the vessels)-- it states -- an english vessel was captured earlier off of porta bello and the english capt stated they had to release him as govenor hamilton was a 25% owner (thus Echeverz patache vessels took the english bilnder as they were the ones operating and taking "prizes" as he awaited treasure delivery in porta bello ) thus Echeverz had 3 prizes in total --one french ,one dutch galera class vessel and one english bilander class vessel -- now as he left only 2 prize vessels (1 french / 1 dutch) are recorded leaving havana harbor with him and it said Ubilla bougth a smallish vessel ( a bilander would be classed as a small vessel )--so it's simply minus one smallish bilander class vessel from Echeverz's fleet and plus one to Ubilla's fleet as they sat in havana harbor -- and it explains what happened to the "english" prize quite nicely . as only 2 prize vessels are recorded in Echeverz's fleet as he left havana.

the "SAN MIGUEL" (galera class) AKA LA OLANDESA / THE DUTCH PRIZE -- HAS TO BE WRECKED in the treasure fleet area as Echeverz used the upper deck works that blew onshore as "a shelter / salvage camp" aka a "real" he even wrote letters "from the real of the olandesa"

the 4 missing vessels are

El SENOR SAN MIGUEL (NAO CLASS) LOADED WITH MAINLY TABACCO -- thought to be lost in deep water out at sea (broke up) one of the 4 vessels that went on a more northly track according to the pilot major of the fleet a DAY BEFORE the storm struck the fleet .

the french prize AKA "EL CIERVO" / LA GALERA -- cargo 96 tons of dye wood -- logs also thought to have sank at sea in deep water another of the missing 4 vessels

Ubilla's Bilander vessel *

and last but not least -- the cape wreck * NUESTRIA SENORA DE LA CONCEPCION (OUR LADY OF THE CONCEPCION) A TREASURE WRECK

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Ivan, you are correct as to the three prizes. However, in your research, look for a ship that was sent back to Spain to deliver a message to the king concerning the situation of the fleet in 1714.

Tom

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Relicdude07, while the Fishers may have 10 leases along the Florida coast, and there are a few others as well. This does not mean that all of there leases are of ships of the 1715 fleet.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

I found that info on some treasure link,and thought it may not be true,maybe a smart legal move at the time ,just incase they might find one in the area ....I also think some of the stuff found on the strip of land ,was when the ships busted the hulls and were pushed back into the shallows ,on the back side of the pass.That strip of land was probly about 8 ft. under water in the storm .Just a guess,and goodluck !!!!

 

[Chagy]

Sebastian Sam,

Maybe you are right, maybe there are still 300 chests out there or maybe some one already found it and never reported it and I’m not only talking about modern days maybe even back in the days when the disaster had recently happened. But for the sake of the argument and to the best of our knowledge lets say that the 300 chests are out there. Why do you think they have not been found if the site has been surveyed and searched for the last 45 years by everyone known in the industry from Mel Fisher him self to Mo Molinar, Marx, Weller, Art Heartman, Tommy Gore, Terry Armstrong, Greg Bounds, John Brandon, Tom Gidus, ARRG and I’m sure I left out over 20 names...

Wher do you think every one has gone wrong? Anyone else other than Sam please feel free to answer this question....


In agreement with Sebastian Sam and Wreckdiver1715 that non of the wrecks have been positively ID’ed.......and to the best of our knowledge lets say that:

1. Santo Cristo de San Roman - Cabin Wreck
2. Nuestra Senora de Regla – Corrigan’s Wreck
3. Nuestra Senora del Carmen – Rio Mar Wreck
4. La Holandesa- Between Rio mar and Sandy Point
5. Nuestra Senora del Rosario – Sandy Point Wreck

Wedge wreck- I’m not sure what’s in this site, the one thing I can say for sure is that this is not the “Urca” The distance in the testimonies and letters don’t math. Plus the amount of cannons found were way more than what the “Urca” was carrying. Based on the testimonies and letters the “Urca” should be closer to Tiger Shores or in the vicinity of that area. Very little ballast stones have been found in this site I wonder if it’s the deck of the “Nieves” and Clored Beach is the hull. It could even be “El Ciervo" for all we know.

6. “Nieves”- Colored Beach

Ivan wrote on post #2 that Salmon knew the location of 9 of the wrecks.

I believe those wrecks were.

1. Regla
2. San Roman
3. Carmen
4. Holandesa
5. Rosario
6. Urca
7.Nieves
8. El Ciervo
9. Galante

I believe that the vessels that are still missing are;

1. Urca.
2. Concepcion which I strongly believe is what Rex S. Found in Melbourne
3. San Miguel
4. El Ciervo
5. Galante

As always this is just my humble opinion........

On the controversy of the origin of Ubilla’s small fragatilla; These documents confirm that in fact it was purchased by Ubilla from Echeverz in Havana.

Letter Dated 14 Nov 1715 From Principe Florida over the los of the 1715 fleet..”Sobre isla del Palmar en frente de los Mimbres” General Ubilla, alon with 36 passengers, was lost....(I’m not going to type this entire letter but further down it reads) The frigatilla which Ubilla bought from Echeverz in Havana lost all hands....

Escribania de Camara 1958C- Don Miguel de Lima y Melo in Havana to Duque de Linares,dated 19 October 1715.

“ The day 24th of July at 0800 in the morning we sailed from this port (Havana), our flota composed of five ships-Capitana, Almiranta, Refuerzo, Patache and small fragatilla which General Ubilla bought in Havana.

Tom, You mentioned some thing about a latter that says that Ubillas frigatilla was build in Cuba?

If so then the controversy will remain a controversy....

 

[ivan salis]

salmon knew of 9 wrecks but did not know where the El CIERVO / LA GALERA /FRENCH PRIZE (CARRYING 96 TONS OF BRAZIL WOOD --A DYE WOOD)-- or the NAO CLASS VESSEL -- SAN MIGUEL (CARRYING MAINLY TABACCO) sank at ----he assumed that due to wreckage that washed ashore on the shore north of st augustine that they broke up at sea (in deep water) and the wood drifted ashore on the coast north of st augustine , he said -- in a letter --"that wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the coast north of st augustine" and that he feared that it was the 2 "missing" vessels that broke up in deep waters (location unknown --no survivors)

the 1715 coins found in nassau sound combined with the wording "wreckage of a large vessel or vessels found on the coast NORTH of st augustine" ( in fact it really meant meant a bit north of st augustine on the coast ) that little bit of information lead many folks to incorrectly think that the nassau sound wreck was in fact one of the missing 1715 fleet vessels (san miguel / french prize)--in the english govenor of virginia alexander spotswood letter of Oct 24.1715 to lord stanhope (spotswood from information gathered from his spy network) clearly states that a "rescue vessel " --a barcalonga (about 60 foot single masted vessel) sent form havana to the 1715 fleet to recover VIPS and treasure was likewize cast away (ie sank)about 40 miles to the north of st augustine. --thus it was NOT one of the original fleet vessels -- but it still carried lots of recovered 1715 fleet treasure onboard her.

 

[billinstuart]

In the area of St. Augustine, there is a weak but consistent counter-current that flows SOUTH along the coast. This is present in Daytona, and as far as I know goes all the way to the St. Lucie Inlet, where it merges with the Gulf Stream Current. It depends on how far offshore you are as to which way you will float.

 

[ivan salis]

massively strong hurricane type storm wind and waves would easy over power the faint southernly counter current which runs just offshore -- and throw onto the shoreline wreckage of vessels that broke up at sea --a northly running hurricane or strong storm ---according to the records there was the hurricane and a day later a second strong storm as well --(running upwards- off shore) they would have would pushed wreckage from vessels that broke up at sea off of the st augustine area (the vessels might have been trying to make port in st augustine) ashore in the area just north of st augustine.

agreed in calm normalish weather the faint southerly counter current just off shore would draw vessel wreckage down southward but this was far from calm normal weather.

 

[billinstuart]

Well, that's true, Ivan...no argument here. I guess I was thinking of circumstances during normal weather.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Hello chagy ... Im going to take a hard look into why they havent found them...You know im not from that area ,and have not focused my search on the area like you guys. I would like to know just about where the wrecks found are located,for me it helps to see maybe some type of pattern.. I would like to know just how far off shore the wrecks found are...If someone can give me the locations/red X of treasue found on the old map. I will try and help..

 

[Chagy]

Ahoy!!!!!

Whats up RelicD.!!!

There are many theories..... that they are on the other side of the road in the river, that they are under the road or the buildings behind the dunes, that they are further north or south and that they are in deeper waters. Be careful once you get bit by the 1715 bug you will never be the same again

http://catalpa.amberdell.com/1715_treasure.html

 

[ivan salis]

personally I like to read historical "offical" hearing records that occured after the 1715 fleet sank asking questions of the survivors and letters actually written by folks who were "there" at time and accountible for the vessels -- like admireal salmon's letters and the pilot major of Ubilla 's flag ship *statement as well as Echervez letters as well as the spotswood letter of oct 24,1715 -- as second in command salmon would without a doubt know exactly how many vessels were in the fleet * --he said 9 wrecked (accounted for) and 2 "missing vessels" thus a total of 11 "fleet" vessels 5 for ubilla and 6 for echevez --(he could have cared less about the griffon as she was not offically part of the fleet and carried not fleet cargo thus he was not accountible for her)-the 2 "missing vessels" were - the NAO SAN MIGUEL (TABACCO) AND THE FRENCH PRIZE VESSEL "EL CIERVO" --(96 TONS OF WOOD) " and that he feared the missing vessels were lost at sea (ie deep waters) due the fact that wreckage of a large vessel or vessels found on the coast north of st augustine.

 

[Chagy]

Ivan or any one else who has an archival source to back up the information provided.

This is why I believe that at the time when Salmon informed that 9 wrecked (accounted for) and 2 "missing vessels" he was talking about Concepcion and San Miguel.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m almost sure that at the time Slamon informed that there were 9 wrecks accounted for and 2 missing, he did not know there had been survivors of the Concepcion. I believe he found out about the survivors after informing about the 9 wrecks. But please correct me if I’m wrong.

Santo Domingo 419- Havana, Testimony of Captain Nicolas de Ynda, Piloto Mayor, of Ubilla’s Almiranta, 16 Aug 1715.

“The flota was lost on Jul 31st...all the shipes were lost exept a French nao and three frigates of Echeverz squadron, because by the time the storm stroke they had taken another route, they were further north.(I’m not going to type the entire letter but at the end it reads) The day before the storm the frigate San Miguel of the Tierra Firme squadron separated from the convoy; two days before the storm the French ship el grifon separated; and on the day of the storm the fragata Concepcion y San Miguel of Echeverz squadron separated.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Good point about the info ivan,but can anyone really tell where anything is in the middle or shortly after a hurricane? Im sure it was just a mess..Were the ships found so far the big heavy ships of the fleet or the smaller of the fleet? Nothing to do with the treasure fleet , some may have seen this picture of the distruction a hurricane can do .And most in florida know first hand....Grand casino biloxi mississippi..Huge casino ,busted lose and pushed inland.. Katrina