Jacobs and Ludi, Fact or Fiction ?

[cw0909]

Good evening gentlemen: Leland Lovelace (Bessie B. Lovelace, real name), Allowed Barry Storm to read her manuscript, "Trail of Disaster" which contained the story of Jacobs and Ludi. She was very much surprised to see that story appear in Storms book. The original name was Ludy but she deliberately changed the name of Ludy to Ludi in her manuscript so she could tell if someone were to ever print that story from her manuscript. Sure enough, Storm spelled the name Ludi. This information comes from an interview with Lovelace by Clay Worst. I do not have a copy of her manuscript and do not know of anyone who has a copy. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

says never published

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=Leland+Lovelace+Trail+of+Disaster

 

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[Gregory E. Davis]

According to Clay, She changed the name of the manuscript several times in an attempt to get it published, being turned down ever time. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Good evening gentlemen: Leland Lovelace (Bessie B. Lovelace, real name), Allowed Barry Storm to read her manuscript, "Trail of Disaster" which contained the story of Jacobs and Ludi. She was very much surprised to see that story appear in Storms book. The original name was Ludy but she deliberately changed the name of Ludy to Ludi in her manuscript so she could tell if someone were to ever print that story from her manuscript. Sure enough, Storm spelled the name Ludi. This information comes from an interview with Lovelace by Clay Worst. I do not have a copy of her manuscript and do not know of anyone who has a copy. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Greg,

Leland Lovelace's real name was Bessie Barkley. She married a Lovelace who was mayor of Chandler, AZ.

Try the ASU library in Tempe, call number MSS-51. Box 1, folders 2 and 3. Several unpublished manuscripts and one titled , Way bills to lost mines and buried treasures. (Written by Lovelace).

Yes, even today authors of dutchman books steal other people's files and publish them not knowing the proper context, meaning or intention of the material they stole.

Matthew

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good evening Matthew: Thank you for the information regarding her maiden name. That is new information for me. I never thought to look that up in the records. I have gone through all of her collection at ASU but her manuscript is not there. One page of it I found in her collection at NAU however I am told that collection has been transferred to ASU. The story I got was that Burt Fireman persuaded her to donate her collection of research material to ASU or ether the Foundation and that he would set aside a room called the Lovelace Collection Room. Never happened. She did hold out a lot of pictures, books, notes, and her Dutchman Manuscript. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Oroblanco]

Tom Kollenborn did a good article on Barry Storm:

Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: Barry Storm - the Adventurer

 

[Al D]

No link for you on Mitchell. You'll have to take my word for it

Unless you have a copy of his "Lost Mines of the Great Southwest"...pg 172:

"There is also confusion, in the minds of those who think they know all about the Lost Dutchman, concerning the name of the man or men who started the story...<snip>...These men are not the original men of the Lost Dutchman: Frank Ricken (real name) or Frank Branden (assumed name), Paul Ludy or Jacobs of one story, Jack Swartz, Andy Starr or a man whose last name was Jacob." Published in PHX, 1933. IMO he got the Jacobs and Ludi story from Milton Rose and was reluctant to publish it, as it's not included in this book.

Interestingly, he goes on: "Jacob Walz did not tell J. R. Holmes (sic) any tale about the mine, nor did Holmes get any $500 or more in gold rock from under the bed of the Dutchman, because Walz was dead before Holmes came to Arizona." Sounds like he had some terrible sources on that.

Not able to help with anything about Jacobs and Ludi published prior to any popular version of the LDM story. Roy or Joe may be able to fill in those blanks.

Here it is

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Anyone who has carefully study and researched the story can find a lot of "HOLES" and incorrect statements in just this one page alone. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Good evening gentlemen: Leland Lovelace (Bessie B. Lovelace, real name), Allowed Barry Storm to read her manuscript, "Trail of Disaster" which contained the story of Jacobs and Ludi. She was very much surprised to see that story appear in Storms book. The original name was Ludy but she deliberately changed the name of Ludy to Ludi in her manuscript so she could tell if someone were to ever print that story from her manuscript. Sure enough, Storm spelled the name Ludi. This information comes from an interview with Lovelace by Clay Worst. I do not have a copy of her manuscript and do not know of anyone who has a copy. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Greg, their name was actually "Loveless" vice "Lovelace". Garry did a lot of research on the Lovelesses and some time back answered some questions I had on this letter she wrote regarding Jacob Waltz:

View attachment 1744767

This article I found was very interesting, concerning Waltz's nephew's skull:

View attachment 1744768

 

[azdave35]

Greg, their name was actually "Loveless" vice "Lovelace". Garry did a lot of research on the Lovelesses and some time back answered some questions I had on this letter she wrote regarding Jacob Waltz:

View attachment 1744767

This article I found was very interesting, concerning Waltz's nephew's skull:

View attachment 1744768

good find

 

[cw0909]

Tom Kollenborn did a good article on Barry Storm:

Tom Kollenborn Chronicles: Barry Storm - the Adventurer

thank you Oroblanco, the info in the Kollenborn link
helped me find what i think is the correct linage of
Barry Storm, my post # 20 is incorrect
Barry Storm AKA,John Griffith Climenson was not on
the 1940 census for his fathers home,or elsewhere,
just guessing he used Barry Storm for the 1940 census
i posted in #20
my post #20
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...4-jacobs-ludi-fact-fiction-2.html#post6275663



Barry Storm AKA,John Griffith Climenson
1920 census



Barry Storm AKA,John Griffith Climenson
1930 census

 

[Oroblanco]

Not to derail the discussion, but I was the one who found the two men named Ludy, and Cactusjumper confirmed the facts. The info was on Fold3 dot com site, they were named Jacob Ludy and I have forgotten the other name, Abraham maybe? enlisted in the Union Army in Missouri, and were discharged in Arizona territory in 1864. I found no documentation to explain why they were mustered out in Tucson, perhaps they were sent there are part of an escort to some wagon train but that is pure speculation based on what is the case with several others we researched. There was an eighteen years difference in the ages of the two men, which COULD mean father and son, brothers with a large age difference, or perhaps uncle and nephew?

I have seen a newspaper article dating to 1878 with the "Jacobs and Ludy" story, found by accident while researching something else, and thought I had saved a copy but can't find it. Missouri had a number of people of Germanic descent, example we can cite in Henry Youngblood the "Dutchman" of the Bradshaws story, and Ludy appears to be a Germanic type of family name.

 

[somehiker]

Jacob E. Ludy and his car....

https://speccoll.library.arizona.edu/photograph-jacob-e-ludy-and-car-circa-1900-1920

from: https://speccoll.library.arizona.edu/collections/scrapbook-verda-lee-ludy-parrick

 

[Hal Croves]

thank you Oroblanco, the info in the Kollenborn link
helped me find what i think is the correct linage of
Barry Storm, my post # 20 is incorrect
Barry Storm AKA,John Griffith Climenson was not on
the 1940 census for his fathers home,or elsewhere,
just guessing he used Barry Storm for the 1940 census
i posted in #20
my post #20
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...4-jacobs-ludi-fact-fiction-2.html#post6275663



Barry Storm AKA,John Griffith Climenson
1920 census
View attachment 1744797View attachment 1744798


Barry Storm AKA,John Griffith Climenson
1930 census

View attachment 1744799View attachment 1744800

If you keep going, you will see that Barry’s father was an attorney (notary) Silas (not Sila) Griffith Climenson who graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in 1901. His nicknames were “Scissors” “Climey” & “Slimy”. Four years Varsity Cricket (captain), Varsity Lacrosse (jr & senior), first place Half-mile, 2nd in two mile, member University Hockey Association.

Grandfather Howard J. Climenson.

Barrys great grandfather was Benjamin Climenson, a dentist in Philadelphia who graduated from Hahnemann Medical College (1873). Died 31 Dec 1929. 1825 N 11th St. Philadelphia.

Great, great grandmother Ann Climenson 86 in 1880. Born in England.

Attached are photos of Silas and classmates (1901).

Barry Storm, as I wrote earlier, provided us with the single most important clue to finding it. Just remember that it should actually be one of several scattered from the Salt to Weavers.

Start with the Peralta Fish map and read Barry’s work. Copies of the Peralta Fish map in high-res are available from Mr. Greg Davis.

 

[gollum]

Greg, their name was actually "Loveless" vice "Lovelace". Garry did a lot of research on the Lovelesses and some time back answered some questions I had on this letter she wrote regarding Jacob Waltz:

View attachment 1744767

This article I found was very interesting, concerning Waltz's nephew's skull:

View attachment 1744768

Yeah Jim,

I think your brain was maybe still a little flustered from watching the videos from your "OTHER" research on L. Lovelace?

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Yeah Jim,

I think your brain was maybe still a little flustered from watching the videos from your "OTHER" research on L. Lovelace?

Mike

Wow Mike that is really DEEP!

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Good morning Hal: Great job in researching. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Hello All: There have been some very interesting post recently at this site however I feel it is time to get back to the original subject of "Jacobs and Ludi" May I make a suggestion that Barry Storm would make a very interesting subject if started as a new thread. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Hal Croves]

Good morning Hal: Great job in researching. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Thank you for the kind words Mr. Greg E. Davis.

 

[somehiker]

Hello All: There have been some very interesting post recently at this site however I feel it is time to get back to the original subject of "Jacobs and Ludi" May I make a suggestion that Barry Storm would make a very interesting subject if started as a new thread. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Looks like the "Jacobs-Ludy" story is just another dead end anyway Greg.
Unless you have something more about it within your collection that you can find for us to talk about.

 

[markmar]

Jacobs and Ludi could been the two soldiers that Waltz has confessed of killing them, but were not the same soldiers with those from the Two Soldiers story of Silver King which was attached to Joe Deering story.
Also I believe how the story of Waltz saving the life of a Peralta member in a bar , in reality this story is related to Jacobs and Ludi and has nothing to do with Waltz and Wiser. And I also believe how Jacobs and Ludi have not worked the LDM, but a different Peralta's mine in that region.
Too many soldiers involved in the Superstitions gold mines saga. Does this means how maps and clues for gold mines were traded for freedom by Mexicans to US soldiers?
I still believe Waltz was led to the LDM by an Apache woman, like Apache " Injunbro" stated. Like Apache took Dr.Thorne to the gold outcrop, the Apache woman led Waltz to the same spot. IMHO there was not another way for someone to discover that gold outcrop, because its location. This was the reason the Apache have not covered that place which later was covered by Waltz.