Why did Travis Tumlinson Fake the Stone Maps as a Hoax?

[Azquester]

I started this thread for those of us that read Ryan's research and how Travis Tumlinson faked the Stone Maps. Why would he do this? Only he knows why. Whether or not it was to cover up information on the Trail Maps it brings into question all of his work. We now know according to Ryan's research he did indeed fabricate at least one of the Stone Maps and made many copies of all the Maps with various degree's of deception included in those copies. We also know he was worried he may be sued if the truth came out and anyone had been hurt or killed looking for any Treasures from his Fake Stone Maps. Any reasons Travis may have given for his deeds only adds to the fact he deceived many people in his actions. This is not the ways of an Honest Man. Should we believe anything at all Travis presented during his life?

What is your take on Travis's exploitation of the Dutchman / Peralta Legend?

Do you believe he did it for a good reason or for his own Ego?

What would drive a man with rock carving skills to deceive so many for so long?

Why did he pretend to search for his own fabricated Map locations, or did he really search?

Many have given numerous amounts of time and dedication trying to decode the Fake Maps.

Why would anyone not be furious about the time and energy wasted on his Hoaxes?

And finally the Man himself is he Criminal, or has a Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) or just a bored trouble maker?

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

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[Old]

Bill,

Will you name for me any people Travis directly deceived? This is a trick question of sorts.

I don't know of anyone Travis hoaxed, conned, extorted money from, lead astray. Or any such thing. Robert? Maybe. Robert's story is different from Travis'.

I really don't want to get into another who shot John over anything that may be going on currently. I'm just voicing my view point that Travis didn't do half of what many blame him for.

Did folks fall all over themselves to possess the stones that he guarded to the day he died? Yes, they did. Did they know what to do with them once they saw them? Apparently not. Is that Travis' fault? I don't think so.

 

[Ponchosportal]

Regardless of who has had the opportunity to interpret them, where they come from, what they lead to, what is on them or the ground map, nothing has been produced except a demonstration that they were created by TT.

I see no reason to believe anything related will produce anything else but the same. To many people have had access without success or there would not be such access as is being afforded now at this point in time. I would be real surprised if this was anything other than chasing a rabbit down a rabbit hole regardless of who thinks what they know at this point.

The proof is in the pudding ................. and there is and never has been any pudding here.

Can't wait to see the Oak Island version of the Stone Maps on TV.

 

[Carl995]

It wasn't a sue happy world back then.

Maybe he did it because he could, like as a joke?
Maybe to get his name out there as the finder of the stone maps?
Whats really sad is people still believe in the maps......

 

[Hal Croves]

I started this thread for those of us that read Ryan's research and how Travis Tumlinson faked the Stone Maps. Why would he do this? Only he knows why. Whether or not it was to cover up information on the Trail Maps it brings into question all of his work. We now know according to Ryan's research he did indeed fabricate at least one of the Stone Maps and made many copies of all the Maps with various degree's of deception included in those copies. We also know he was worried he may be sued if the truth came out and anyone had been hurt or killed looking for any Treasures from his Fake Stone Maps. Any reasons Travis may have given for his deeds only adds to the fact he deceived many people in his actions. This is not the ways of an Honest Man. Should we believe anything at all Travis presented during his life?

What is your take on Travis's exploitation of the Dutchman / Peralta Legend?

Do you believe he did it for a good reason or for his own Ego?

What would drive a man with rock carving skills to deceive so many for so long?

Why did he pretend to search for his own fabricated Map locations, or did he really search?

Many have given numerous amounts of time and dedication trying to decode the Fake Maps.

Why would anyone not be furious about the time and energy wasted on his Hoaxes?

And finally the Man himself is he Criminal, or has a Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) or just a bored trouble maker?

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks

Geez Bill,
You just described every artist that I have ever known.

 

[hooch]

He did it to make himself recognized amongst the other failed Dutch hunters

 

[Azquester]

Old I think he wanted to see if he could pull it off. Maybe he read about the Dutchman saga and decided his skills would help him become part of the Legend? Did he Deceive anyone? Yes he did. If I show you a Map that I knew was fake as I had made it even though you never followed it I think it still qualifies as deception. When someone has a secret people climb all over themselves trying to own it. Fake secrets are deceiving even though no one actually used them.

In Dr Glovers new book he explains how Travis never really looked in the Superstitions for any Treasures the stones lead to. He just like talking about it a his camp along with stories about Jacob Waltz.

No one knew what to do with the stones because they were his creation only in his mind. It was just an artists work in stone nothing more.

Bill,

Will you name for me any people Travis directly deceived? This is a trick question of sorts.

I don't know of anyone Travis hoaxed, conned, extorted money from, lead astray. Or any such thing. Robert? Maybe. Robert's story is different from Travis'.

I really don't want to get into another who shot John over anything that may be going on currently. I'm just voicing my view point that Travis didn't do half of what many blame him for.

Did folks fall all over themselves to possess the stones that he guarded to the day he died? Yes, they did. Did they know what to do with them once they saw them? Apparently not. Is that Travis' fault? I don't think so.

 

[Azquester]

Carrol, It is sad.

Many people including myself have spent countless hours researching thinking the stones were some real Treasure Map. All along we were all being deceived by a dead man. Sounds just like Waltz doesn't it?

Mimic's the Dutchman story. He accomplished his wishes. Here it is some 55 years later and we're still talking about him and his carved stones! He would have been proud of his deeds. Simply an artists work. Still I bet the stones would command a high price even as a Hoax!

If he was a Miner and not an Artist would he have done the same? Jacob Tumlinson, Travis Waltz?

I see many similarities in both stories. But notoriety and the clamor that follows it is enough to feed some peoples ego's.
He had skills that were only good for Grave Stone carving back then. What a dead end job! Wouldn't it be nice to find a way to use my skills so I could get some attention?

Presto the Trail Maps!

He was also a showman and a Magician!

It wasn't a sue happy world back then.

Maybe he did it because he could, like as a joke?
Maybe to get his name out there as the finder of the stone maps?
Whats really sad is people still believe in the maps......

 

[TDogger]

The answer is probably the same as with a question about why so many people report alien abductions.

I've seen the originals, or at least the replicas displayed in the Mesa Southwest Museum. They certainly are not something some Mexican miners scratched together while in the field.

 

[Azquester]

He made his standing with in the community well known at the time. If I wanted all the best information about the Dutchman Mine from the very secret old time Treasure Hunters how would I go about it? Maybe if I created some Stone Maps that looked authentic I could barter my way into this secret information? If I could some how tie these Maps into Manuel Peralta or Santa Fe New Mexico I could be teleported right into the legend and become part of the society of these Hunters! That could have been his deception tactic.

Like a mole for the CIA he became part of the circle of insiders almost over night.

Or like a child with some new special candy "I'll show you mine if you show me yours?".

We may never know the extent of this infiltration of the local experts on the Dutchman mine. Secrets still remain secrets usually after someone dies.

He did it to make himself recognized amongst the other failed Dutch hunters

 

[Azquester]

Thanks for the input TDogger. Your right the maps were made with modern tools and not chiseled by hand along the Santa Fe Trail!
The conclusions of experts that took a look at them were they had been created with a drill bit. I think I saw where early on someone even found the scratches of the outlines that were made for the drilling!

I think your right though. Aliens made him do it.

The answer is probably the same as with a question about why so many people report alien abductions.

I've seen the originals, or at least the replicas displayed in the Mesa Southwest Museum. They certainly are not something some Mexican miners scratched together while in the field.

 

[cactusjumper]

The answer is probably the same as with a question about why so many people report alien abductions.

I've seen the originals, or at least the replicas displayed in the Mesa Southwest Museum. They certainly are not something some Mexican miners scratched together while in the field.

TD,

Once you figure this story out, tell us why some people tell stories of being chased by a bigfoot? Believe it all comes from the same type of imagination.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[nobodie]

Because of the things that I have found, it had bothered me when people believed that the stones didn't lead any where. I am glad this thread is here, and I hope more people won't look for the Jesuit's treasure. I believe the treasure site is a native American burial ground, where the priests killed and buried the native Amaricans that helped them hide it, to keep it a secret. Where it is hiden, no one will ever find it. Even with the new information and maps that have been recently found, the treasure will stay hidden. Another 100 years and the stone maps directional markers will disappear. Keep up the good work Bill,

 

[Hal Croves]

Because of the things that I have found, it had bothered me when people believed that the stones didn't lead any where. I am glad this thread is here, and I hope more people won't look for the Jesuit's treasure. I believe the treasure site is a native American burial ground, where the priests killed and buried the native Amaricans that helped them hide it, to keep it a secret. Where it is hiden, no one will ever find it. Even with the new information and maps that have been recently found, the treasure will stay hidden. Another 100 years and the stone maps directional markers will disappear. Keep up the good work Bill,

Not a bad theory and perhaps some truth in it. I like this story:

"We have been at some pains recently to ascertain as much as the origin of the name as possible and in furtherance of this object we interviewed one of the old sub-chiefs of the Pimas who officiates as medicine man and carries the tradition of his tribe written upon memory tablets to be transmitted to his successors..... Montezuma was a great chief and ruler over thousands of souls, the inhabitants of very large cities and populating the extensive plains of this country. Fearing that a great calamity was about to befall him and his people, he caused them to assemble on the plains adjacent to the mountain and then with his magic wand, he caused an opening to be made in the side of the mountain, into which he and his people went. Then the stone gate was closed and to this day Montezuma and his people dwell within the center of the rugged old mountain. Some day, the tradition says, he and his people will come forth as white people, to again occupy the land, build great villages and..."

Here they are writing about Superstition Mt.
I guess one could spend a life time trying to understand the meaning of stories like this.

 

[gollum]

TD,

Once you figure this story out, tell us why some people tell stories of being chased by a bigfoot? Believe it all comes from the same type of imagination.

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,

What stories? Year before last, when I was camping in Stanislaus National Forest, something was walking (read: walking on two feet) around the periphery of my camp. The next morning, going up a steep slope, I found a few partial footprints (front part):



I have a size 12-13 foot, and that print is twice as wide as mine. I didn't "SEE" what it was, but it was BIG.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

What stories? Year before last, when I was camping in Stanislaus National Forest, something was walking (read: walking on two feet) around the periphery of my camp. The next morning, going up a steep slope, I found a few partial footprints (front part):

View attachment 1263469

I have a size 12-13 foot, and that print is twice as wide as mine. I didn't "SEE" what it was, but it was BIG.

Mike

Mike,

A number of years ago, an old friend of mine told me he, and a bunch of his friends, were considering creating some Big Foot "evidence" out in the Superstitions. All for laughs and to see if it would become a story. Can't help but think they are not the only ones dreaming this stuff up.

Ever see a bear walk on two feet? Old timer in Colorado, once told us he was hired to kill off the Grizzlies and create trails in the Durango area. Had a bear trap chained to a fallen tree. When he came back the tree trap and bear were all gone. The bear had picked up the tree and walked off with it in his arms. When he came to a stand of Aspens, he had to hold the tree to his side and snake it through the trees. Must have left some weird looking tracks.

On the other hand, maybe it exists. Look forward to seeing it's remains.......somewhere.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[sdcfia]

Mike,

A number of years ago, an old friend of mine told me he, and a bunch of his friends, were considering creating some Big Foot "evidence" out in the Superstitions. All for laughs and to see if it would become a story. Can't help but think they are not the only ones dreaming this stuff up.

On the other hand, maybe it exists. Look forward to seeing it's remains.......somewhere.

Good luck,

Joe

Those old friends of yours aren't the same bunch making up treasure stories in the Superstitions too, were they? You know, Lost Dutchman, Peralta Mines, Cave of Gold Bars, etc. We look forward to seeing those remains too.

 

[cactusjumper]

Those old friends of yours aren't the same bunch making up treasure stories in the Superstitions too, were they? You know, Lost Dutchman, Peralta Mines, Cave of Gold Bars, etc. We look forward to seeing those remains too.

Steve,

Nope, not even close. Ex light-heavyweight boxer. We worked together as Pipefitters.

The Cave of Gold Bars story is not made up. It's a true story, and I would bet the farm on that.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

I started this thread for those of us that read Ryan's research and how Travis Tumlinson faked the Stone Maps. Why would he do this? Only he knows why. Whether or not it was to cover up information on the Trail Maps it brings into question all of his work. We now know according to Ryan's research he did indeed fabricate at least one of the Stone Maps and made many copies of all the Maps with various degree's of deception included in those copies. We also know he was worried he may be sued if the truth came out and anyone had been hurt or killed looking for any Treasures from his Fake Stone Maps. Any reasons Travis may have given for his deeds only adds to the fact he deceived many people in his actions. This is not the ways of an Honest Man. Should we believe anything at all Travis presented during his life?

What is your take on Travis's exploitation of the Dutchman / Peralta Legend?

Do you believe he did it for a good reason or for his own Ego?

What would drive a man with rock carving skills to deceive so many for so long?

Why did he pretend to search for his own fabricated Map locations, or did he really search?

Many have given numerous amounts of time and dedication trying to decode the Fake Maps.

Why would anyone not be furious about the time and energy wasted on his Hoaxes?

And finally the Man himself is he Criminal, or has a Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) or just a bored trouble maker?

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks

An interesting question you pose Bill. As you pointed out, we can not KNOW what motivations Travis had. I will propose one more theory.

In the early days of Christianity, there were religious true believers, who felt there were not enough books/texts in the religion. So they would write up a book expounding on the religion, and instead of signing their own name, would write the name of some famous patriarch, saint or Apostle as the author. It is pretty much a certainty that Abraham did not write the Testament of Abraham for example. The experts call this "pious fraud" because it was not done with the intent to deceive anyone or defraud them of money or property, the real authors were trying to fill a gap they thought existed, making something they felt SHOULD exist.

I propose that Travis might have been making the maps to fill that gap, not to cheat anyone or fool them for laughs, but that he felt it SHOULD exist so created them. A simile would be the guy that gets to a crossroads and the road sign is missing, so he makes one to put in its place. Not an attempt to cheat or for laughs. Just a personal THEORY.

Joe - on the Bigfoot topic, I would suggest to look into it a bit deeper. The fakes are more easily detected these days, and the best tracks (as evidence) have real dermal ridges in them, like humans have as well as the great apes, but of a pattern unlike either species. You pointed out bears walking upright, yet bear tracks walking on two feet always look pigeon-toed, with the big toes in the wrong spots, also the stride is quite short because they can not take long steps without losing their balance. For those unfamiliar with what we are talking about, Joe as an old Alaskan sourdough is well familiar with bear tracks but some people have never seen them:
Bear track

<borrowed from this excellent site: https://www.bear.org/website/bear-pages/black-bear/black-bear-sign/51-bear-tracks-and-trails.html>

This is an example of HUMAN dermal ridges just to show what dermal ridges are for those unaware:

Also a good photo of a track in snow on this page:
2013 November > Bigfoot Buzz > Page 2

Fingerprint examiner J.H.Chilcutt is credited with first identifying the bigfoot dermal ridge phenomenon.

As to the finding of remains, you are probably well aware of the argument about how often we find the carcass of dead bears, or a better example in dead mountain lions. Unless killed on a highway, it is very unlikely to find such a rare animal carcass. Nature itself removes the evidence. Also it is quite possible that we already have the remains, just perhaps not making the connection - the numerous "giants" skeletal remains found in burial mounds, caves etc in the US, and also the Gigantopithecus, which may have been a giant ape OR may have been a type of giant human. Humans have as many hairs as chimpanzees, it is entirely possible that another species of human may have had coarser hair, and would look just like what bigfoot are reported to look like.

It is a rather interesting topic, if you are interested I would love to discuss it with you, have a thread for that reason in another part of the forum.

Sorry for the off topic material. Please do continue;

 

[sdcfia]

Steve,

Nope, not even close. Ex light-heavyweight boxer. We worked together as Pipefitters.

Take care,

Joe

Thank you, Joe - that's the point. I can give you even better credentials for a 40-year friend (and reliable professional), who, along with his fishing buddy, was terrorized by Bigfoot in 1968 in the Marble Mountain Wilderness in CA. As I've heard him say numerous times during debates about Stinky, "I don't need to be convinced. I know it's real". How can we judge if he is one of "those people with an imagination", or a credible witness? By the way, the same guy and myself together witnessed a different sort of cryptozoological phenomena here in New Mexico about ten years ago. I've posted this before - long story short: we saw a bird with a 20 foot+ wingspan. By asking around, we found out from our 75 YO clear-eyed, ramrod-straight, no-nonsense rancher friend that both his daddy and granddaddy each also saw bigbird in the same canyon - as far back as the early 1900s. Maybe we're all "those people".

Bottom line: most of what you are convinced is either real or unreal likely is or isn't.

[OT: Did you happen to read my response to the Harry France cave story as told by Ward? I'm interested in your thoughts.]