Same old hustle

[MadMarshall]

Claim flippers are to me one of the few people that are truly mining the miners and it shouldn't be supported.

Are u kidding me? AMRA GPAA PLP New 49rs the list goes on and on.... Stake claims for recreational use .To many gold clubs now to even count.. What's the difference if they stake them just to sell them or instead charge a yearly fee to mine them?

Don't miss the AMRA outing this weekend!!! YOU CAN WIN A GOLD CLAIM!!!!! I THINK RAFFLE TICKETS ARE ONLY A DOLLOR!!

Didn't want to hijack the mylandmatters thread..

But seriously people these groups are out of control.. And are the poorest representation anyone let alone a miner could have!

 

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[Asmbandits]

Thats whats great about Living in the USA, The people that support these groups chose to do so as they are free to, fulfilling whatever need they chose to support the group for. Your free to your opinions as well, but you can't blame anyone who supports these groups for doing so, it is there right and they are obviously getting something out of it, if not why would they support it? In other words, what worth something to you might not be worth it to someone else and vise versa. Its like your constantly trying to tell these people that they are getting ripped off but they obviously feel the opposite, so maybe you worry about how it affects you and they will do the same?

Out of curiosity, What would your ideal representation of miners consist of?

 

[goldenIrishman]

That's one area of the mining laws that I'm confused on here. If I remember correctly, it is against the law to make a claim strictly for resale like so many of the claim flippers do. So here is where it gets confusing to me. Claims are treated as real property and can be bought, sold and traded. But how long must a person hold onto a claim before they are not violating the laws? Does that claim have to have been worked for a specific length of time before it can be sold? Also, why isn't the BLM or the counties doing something to stop this practice if it is against the law?

Anyone that wants to buy a claim should of course do their due diligence and maybe dig a little deeper into the history of the claim before they plunk down any kind of money. If the current owner of the claim will not allow you to test it before you commit to buying, that's a major red flag and I'd be running away as fast as my feet can carry me. If ANY of the paperwork seems in the least bit to be flaky, again it's a "Feet don't fail me now" situation. If the seller seems even the least bit flaky, won't allow you to test in any area of your choice or wants to charge a testing fee to let you test, I'd be looking for another claim! Better yet.... Do a little research and go find your own claim and avoid getting ripped off.

 

[Goldwasher]

Being a member of most clubs is essentially leasing. Fully legal. Amra is only 200 a year for access to a lot of ground in many states. Great deal...and I'm not even a member. Most clubs have claim sharing the organization will typically handle your paperwork if you share your claim with members. Victor I think the problem you have is with community and brotherhood. most people who get together at club claims are there with each other it is rare for the "suits" to even be there.
You feel that anyone who isn't earning a living is undeserving and on the flip side don't like large operations. The fact is all of your disdain and ranting is not going to change the situation at all.
Someone who locates an open area and puts it up for sale almost immediately is in no way comparable to a group that is trying to educate people on technique and law while giving them somewhere to go.
Your dislike is solely personal and not grounded in justice at all.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Calling someone who digs dirt to find gold a "recreational" miner is pretty much a no go Marshall. If the intent is to find and recover valuable minerals why do you feel you have the right to classify club members any differently than yourself?

It's perfectly legal to lease or rent mining claims as long as the intent is to prospect, develop or mine the claim. Drawing an arbitrary line as to who is recreating and who is serious based on which claims they do it on isn't going to get any traction with miners, the courts or the federal government. It's your own self made rule and you should feel free to enforce that rule on your own claim should you ever discover one.

I'm not much of a joiner. I've belonged to a few clubs throughout the last 40+ years of mining but I did so to support the clubs. Very few clubs have ground worth my time considering their reluctance to step up their recover options. That's their choice and even though it doesn't suit my needs they have every right to do so.

No matter how good the claim is there is no legal requirement to mine your claim. Old rule of law there Marshall going back thousands of years and still valid today. You may feel left out because others just hold their claims but that's just your state of mind, not a legal or moral point.

I'm fine with you posting your opinions here or anywhere they are allowed. If you keep your anger in check and don't insult anyone I suspect you will eventually find others who agree with your opinions. In the end though it is just your opinion and there are always going to be opposing opinions no matter where you stand.

Heavy Pans

 

[motohed]

I just don't get the people who are professional miners , verses the recreational miners . I know they are trying to make a living . But we are all on the same side at the end of the day , there is safety in numbers , so why fight it . Not to mension that some of us , maybe become professional miners at some point .

 

[Oakview2]

The left has tried to label recreational miners as to claim they have no protections under the mining laws. ir you don't practice catch and release, you may be a professional

 

[Alex Burke]

I support clubs and prospecting organizations completely and think they're great. But as a wild suggestion I think it would be nice if the mining community tried to make some ways for people serious about it to get into mining that weren't as front loaded investment wise.

I'm obviously dreaming but it would be nice if there were place that someone had claimed with good gold on it that helped serious people that want to get into mining for as little as possible. Like a mining refugee camp for Californians like myself

We all know equipment, getting there and a few months supply of food/fuel etc. is a lot of money and overwhelming for avg people to come up with.

Instead of coming up with all the extra money upfront if the miner gave 10-20% of his take after arrival to claim-holder that provided minimal logistical support like a ride to claim etc. A model based on the money coming out of the mining. This would still be mining the miner but it would get them on the gold for a lot less upfront. I think this would be a better business model for some aspiring miners.

Would it be a good business model for a claim holder? Probably not but I would like to get a claim and maybe try this approach someday hopefully even offer it free. It would be nice to have a few 160acre blocks and let people make a little money and ideally not have to mine them hard upfront or after.

There are many companies that provide their claim to camp on and mine but it is a business model that mostly caters to vacationing prospectors obviously not those that want to mine for survival. I think this also makes it harder to get claims in good areas with so many people interested in being mining outfitters. If you add up or look at the claim blocks especially in AK; the outfitters, JR golds and big gold sit on huge blocks of claims as part of their investment portfolios and you start to see its hard to get claims in a decent area even with millions of acres.

Don't get me wrong I would like to reiterate I think clubs are great, I was in the GPAA and learned a lot, it's just tough for working poor people like myself to get into a higher more serious level of prospecting/dredging.

 

[Bonaro]

Claim flippers are to me one of the few people that are truly mining the miners and it shouldn't be supported.

Are u kidding me? AMRA GPAA PLP New 49rs the list goes on and on.... Stake claims for recreational use .To many gold clubs now to even count.. What's the difference if they stake them just to sell them or instead charge a yearly fee to mine them?

Don't miss the AMRA outing this weekend!!! YOU CAN WIN A GOLD CLAIM!!!!! I THINK RAFFLE TICKETS ARE ONLY A DOLLOR!!

Didn't want to hijack the mylandmatters thread..

But seriously people these groups are out of control.. And are the poorest representation anyone let alone a miner could have!

I'm not understanding what your problem is. Is it that you don't think anyone should be able to sell their "real property" or is it that you cant afford to buy them?
There is nothing that prevents someone from selling a claim the day they stake it. The only requirement is that a claim have actual valuable minerals on it...you cant stake worthless ground.

I have bought and sold many claims and I am constantly on the lookout for new ones that I can stake and sell. Not only is this a good way to make a few bucks but it fills a serious need in the market. Many people want their own claim but have no idea how to find one or file on it. There is nothing wrong with flipping a claim any more than there is flipping a car. Here in the civilized world we have dealerships setup to do that exact thing. Have you ever bought a car off a sales lot? Were you plagued with these same issues then?
No one is holding a gun to your head. If you don't want to buy a claim unless someone has owned it for years.....then don't. Claims are no different than cars, kick the tires before you buy.

 

[Alex Burke]

Hi Bonaro I'm not trying to speak on anyone's behalf but you essentially bring up a point that is frustrating to some. The point is claims are the market, very few claims are actually mined and most claims here in Ca are priced unrealistically. If the best we can realistically ever hope for is to put a 4 inch dredge in the water and make 1/4 to 1/2 ounce a day how does it make sense to sell these claims at 100k-10million. We have seen modern Canadian companies come in, buy huge blocks of motherlode claims and try to permit and mine but good luck getting a permit for anything near the water here.

Claims based on tertiary river gravel deposits that nobody will ever get down to bedrock and actually mine (except the corrupt cleanup programs) and people preying on uneducated investors have lead to a overpriced claim market here in Ca. Just my two cents.

 

[Bonaro]

Hi Bonaro I'm not trying to speak on anyone's behalf but you essentially bring up a point that is frustrating to some. The point is claims are the market, very few claims are actually mined and most claims here in Ca are priced unrealistically. If the best we can realistically ever hope for is to put a 4 inch dredge in the water and make 1/4 to 1/2 ounce a day how does it make sense to sell these claims at 100k-10million. We have seen modern Canadian companies come in, buy huge blocks of motherlode claims and try to permit and mine but good luck getting a permit for anything near the water here.

Claims based on tertiary river gravel deposits that nobody will ever get down to bedrock and actually mine (except the corrupt cleanup programs) and people preying on uneducated investors have lead to a overpriced claim market here in Ca. Just my two cents.

You kinda answered your own question...uneducated buyers.
If you are in the market to buy a claim for $1000 then chances are you are buying your first claim, have little experience and have a good chance to get your moneys worth.
If you are in the market to buy a $1 million dollar claim, chances are this is not your first rodeo and you already know to get geotech and drill reports as well as verify past production history.
If you have little experience and you are buying your first claim and you throw a million on the first piece of dirt with a discovery post on it. No survey, no testing, only high hopes...there is a saying... "a fool and his money are soon parted"

The price of a claim is very dependent on the opinion of the seller. The VALUE of a claim is usually much different. The prudent buyer will learn the difference.
This is no different than any other market...real estate....if you are buying a million dollar house, you are going to do your homework, get inspections, title insurance, escrow etc... If you are buying a $5k repo you will be much less cautious. In either case the responsibility to confirm or accept value rests with the buyer.

This is the way the American market works...buyer beware, caveat emptor, whatever. I'm not sure why this suddenly changes when the commodity is a mining claim.

 

[Goldwasher]

You kinda answered your own question...uneducated buyers.
If you are in the market to buy a claim for $1000 then chances are you are buying your first claim, have little experience and have a good chance to get your moneys worth.
If you are in the market to buy a $1 million dollar claim, chances are this is not your first rodeo and you already know to get geotech and drill reports as well as verify past production history.
If you have little experience and you are buying your first claim and you throw a million on the first piece of dirt with a discovery post on it. No survey, no testing, only high hopes...there is a saying... "a fool and his money are soon parted"

The price of a claim is very dependent on the opinion of the seller. The VALUE of a claim is usually much different. The prudent buyer will learn the difference.
This is no different than any other market...real estate....if you are buying a million dollar house, you are going to do your homework, get inspections, title insurance, escrow etc... If you are buying a $5k repo you will be much less cautious. In either case the responsibility to confirm or accept value rests with the buyer.

This is the way the American market works...buyer beware, caveat emptor, whatever. I'm not sure why this suddenly changes when the commodity is a mining claim.

its called MINING LAW! Staking a claim and selling it the same day is not legal. Locating with the intent to sell is not legal. coming up with value having not proven reserves/resources is innacurate there fore any associated price is a guess. Anyone who buys an unproven claim does not have a good plan. Iv'e seen good claims for sell. 35k plus sold by firms that include drill maps and resource reports. That is not flipping that is development. As mentioned by clay claim flipping is bad and not legal. People shouldn't do it. i will continue to educate new prospectors on the claims process so they don't get ripped off or waste their money.

 

[Hoser John]

In the past 50+ years I've claimed land for myself, friends and numerous clubs all over the state. I have sold just 1 claim EVER as all others given away to "REAL" non profit Mom/Pop type clubs with dues under $50 a year for a whole family. Under the law your supposed to claim and develop the lands and NOT just claim and sell repeatedly to some newbie sucker. Claim flipping is NOT proper utilization of the 1872 mining laws and hurts it's foundation. BUT in this world of today done constantly and exposed as frauds all the time. Claim then mine is my creed and no claim hustle is ever going to be my stock in trade EVER. You do what ya want and I will not participate in the scams-John

 

[GrizzlyGremlin]

I was under the impression that until a claim is "patented" it may not be sold.
I thought patented claims were treated more like real property because of the cemented mineral rights, and claims not patented were in essence a "lease" of the mineral rights to the claimant for exploration and proving mineral content.
I guess under the law "selling" refers to ownership. I think this term is misused, and the law interprets "selling" a claim as not as ownership, but rather a "lease" on a lease, because the claim by definition isn't owned in the first place.
Very similar to someone "subletting" an apartment. Even if you "buy" a claim it's not necessarily yours forever unless its patented.
I was always curious about this gray area.

 

[Clay Diggins]

its called MINING LAW! Staking a claim and selling it the same day is not legal. Locating with the intent to sell is not legal. coming up with value having not proven reserves/resources is innacurate there fore any associated price is a guess. Anyone who buys an unproven claim does not have a good plan. Iv'e seen good claims for sell. 35k plus sold by firms that include drill maps and resource reports. That is not flipping that is development. As mentioned by clay claim flipping is bad and not legal. People shouldn't do it. i will continue to educate new prospectors on the claims process so they don't get ripped off or waste their money.

It's long established law that making a claim for the sole purpose of reselling it creates a void claim with no rights.

Those who believe otherwise haven't studied the law. From the Supreme Court in Cole v Ralph 1920 - one of the most important mining cases in history:

"In advance of discovery an explorer in actual occupation and diligently searching for mineral is treated as a licensee or tenant at will, and no right can be initiated or acquired through a forcible, fraudulent or clandestine intrusion upon his possession. But if his occupancy be relaxed, or be merely incidental to something other than a diligent search for mineral, and another enters peaceably, and not fraudulently or clandestinely, and makes a mineral discovery and location, the location so made is valid and must be respected accordingly. Belk v. Meagher, 104 U. S. 279, 287, 26 L. Ed. 735; Union Oil Co. v. Smith, 249 U. S. 337, 346-348, 39 Sup. Ct. 308, 63 L. Ed. 635, and cases cited."

Cole v Ralph showed that a mining claim in name only is not a form of property. Notice the many court cases cited stretching back to the 1880's. This was not a new concept when the Supreme Court made the Cole v Ralph ruling in 1920. Many claims have been declared void for lack of intent to pursue discovery. Any claim declared to be made for the sole purpose of sale is still open to location by other prospectors. Claims flippers are selling nothing but empty promises.

Heavy Pans

 

[ghostminer]

One of the biggest problems is with the BLM. They will accept any claim filing and it will be adjudicated at some point. The Fresno BLM is two years behind on this process. In other words, Joe The Claim Jumper can file over the top of someone's claim at the County and the BLM and they will accept it and give the claim whatever name & Fed ID# Joe Claim Jumper wants and it may or may not get sorted out sometime later. I've seen someone who has paid fees on a claim for years get jumped by a certain shady individual who then sold it to an unsuspecting prospector. Sad.

 

[Goldwasher]

One of the biggest problems is with the BLM. They will accept any claim filing and it will be adjudicated at some point. The Fresno BLM is two years behind on this process. In other words, Joe The Claim Jumper can file over the top of someone's claim at the County and the BLM and they will accept it and give the claim whatever name & Fed ID# Joe Claim Jumper wants and it may or may not get sorted out sometime later. I've seen someone who has paid fees on a claim for years get jumped by a certain shady individual who then sold it to an unsuspecting prospector. Sad.

It doesn't affect the original valid claim. As long as you work it regularly your likely to run into the over filer...and they are still considered highgraders. If your going to buy a claim you should atleast know how to look up the files and land description to know that it's open. Buying a claim and not looking into it is foolish.....and since it takes about the same amount of work as just filing one on your own. Blm will take your money but it's not their fault if someone buys a claim that is located and invalid over top of another one.

 

[MadMarshall]

Calling someone who digs dirt to find gold a "recreational" miner is pretty much a no go Marshall. If the intent is to find and recover valuable minerals why do you feel you have the right to classify club members any differently than yourself?
Recreational mining is a real thing.. Maybe not 70 years ago but now a very real part of land use.. Ones intent speaks a lot I think and should dictate the allowed use of the land. And to an extent it does. Club members as individuals I make no claims to know there intent. But as far as the clubs as a whole.. They have only one intent and that is to exploit recreational mining.. Claims are not meant to be staked for recreational use!

Someone who locates an open area and puts it up for sale almost immediately is in no way comparable to a group that is trying to educate people on technique and law while giving them somewhere to go.
Your dislike is solely personal and not grounded in justice at all.
I do not believe for one second that the these groups do any kind of educating. Educating really? More like exploiting!
For me it about prospecting/mining/the land and using it.. Its about understanding the world and things are ever changing... Its about my community and most important its about the people.. Its nothing personal and I do not think my claims are unfounded I think RECRETIONAL GOLD CLUBS like AMRA GPAA NEW49rs and the hundreds of other ones are a CANCER in the community..
But anyway people are free to do as they choose and support who they like.. I am just sorry that people are made to feel like that the only difference to be made is by donating to these groups.. Don't be cheap in your donations your very freedom hangs in the balance!

 

[goldenIrishman]

I for one have to politely dis agree with you on that second part Vic. I'm a member of the Mohave Prospectors Assoc. and we do have classes for our members. Are there clubs like those you talk about? Of course there are! Keep in mind though that not all clubs are cut from the same cloth. Our classes run the gambit from map reading to using the PLSS to how to do proper due diligence. We're even considering doing some basic geology classes that will cover the area around here in N.W. AridZona.

Many of the smaller clubs are part of the GPAA but still have classes. They get in with them to have access to their claims. I know that the Huachuca Miners has field classes during the cooler months and the president happens to teach a Jr. college level class on the basics of prospecting as an enrichment course. Many a miner has gotten their start with a smaller club and I for one am glad that they're around to pass on the knowledge. (Clay and I can't teach all of them after all!)

 

[Jeff95531]

Victor...I'm broke as broke can be but do donate to Land Matters and PLP. I take giving my money away very seriously and would never do it without a lot of research prior to the donation and I ALSO expect a return of some kind afterwards. Of the two, one is for the information and the other is for the protection. I have been intimately involved with law and government and believe you me, we need information and protection! And I agree with your last sentence...we are indeed at risk of our very freedom to explore. :

BTW..If I had even a little extra $$$, I would join the New 49'ers cuz the government took almost all of the land where I live and "protect" it from me so well that I can barely use it at all...much less CLAIM it. OMG