tayopa, legend or reality ...?

i stopped replying to this thread around page 51 . for a good reason . i wanted to give some of the people talking a chance to speak their over sight of the topic from their point of view . and this prove to be a smart idea .. i have seen a few of our poster pass on and they will be greatly mist . Me and Real DE Tayopa had many talks about the legends of Tayopa folk lore . in conclusion ,we agreed not to agree on all the details . but to reach a common ground of under standing of the legend as it was and not what ether of us believed it could be .. this ended in a under stand that there were as many as 3-5 different spellings of the word relating to as many number of known and unknown sites .i will hope in the future to go back to the site #5 that i had called the Tayopa church site . and i will now correct the name of that site to be the Real de Tayopa site #number 5 ...i hope to go back and collect any evidence to prove if this site is the Real Tayopa church ..any finds at that location will be in memory of Real de Tayopa ..as many of you well know proving anything about a site this old takes time and hard work and lots of research ...we have lost some great treasure hunters and most of all great friends , i don't know if there is any evidence left at that site . but i will flip every rock till i am sure that if there is ,i will find it ...this was not known to anyone other then me and Real de Tayopa . ,me & real de had talked about something i found at my church # 5 site ,"a race Way " some of you old school miners will know what i am saying most will not ...it takes a lot of hard work and time and man power to build a race way ...the one in question would have taken dozens of men and years to build . if there was a race way . that means there was a smelter to fit the size of the race way .. this is a unknown site a vast importance ..that's why Real de and my self agreed till i can go back and investigate the site in detail we just will not know the out come of this site or who made it ..one thing is clear the site had to be active before Cortez in the early 1500's and as late as the early 1700's ,and this very clearly limits what mining camp it could be ... ! a few things i do know . one there most likely were a few mines as many as a dozen or more feeding this smelter ,by the size of the race way they were most likely Silver mines ..if i was to make a sound guess . i would say the main mine was called the Tapira or Tayopa and was renamed the Don Peralta mine that shows up on the Peralta stones ...
 

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just in case some of you dont under stand what i am talking about .. it has a few nick names . like "a Mexican race track "....!
 

over sight , my self and Real de Tayopa . talked many times about the legend and evidence of the Tayopa . what did we agree on .. well that was simple to put in words . one we both agreed that there was 3 Tayopa locations spelled as Tayopa . and there were two other spellings of the location depending on who was telling the details .so there was as many as 5 locations related to the legend . one thing we both agreed on was we had both found two of the 3 site location . why these sites are 330-340 miles apart who knows why ..Real de Tayopa had started investigating his site and found some first hand evidence that a line with the legend . now i found the remains of a Jesuit Church that there is no record of it being where it is ...but i also found deep cut wagon tracks and some other evidence of mining and of a smelter .if i ever do get back to AZ i hope to search the sites in detail ..the time line is correct and the sites fit the legend .. who knows the legend of Tayopa has taken a good friend and great treasure hunter ..and the legends goes on ....i wish i could share everything i know ...yes i believe the 3 Tayops sites were real and have been lost to time and maybe some day the sites will be uncovered.. i am sure Real De Tayopa is up in heaven looking down watching the legend unfold and smiling ...
 

The word ,Tayopa, comes from the Opata dialect, and more correctly from another indigneous group ,the Jova, the Jova spoke Jova ,so it is more accurately a Jova word. The word Opata is more recent borrowed from the Pima,language which means ,enemy. So those who were enemies to the Pimas were called Opatas. The Franciscan priests collectively combined threw groups that inhabited the central and northern most part o f what is now the Sonoran -Chihuahuan border área into this new group and thus the orgin of the Opata indians. According to linguistic anthropologists ,the study of extinct languages, specifically in this región,the word Tayopa means .sancturary of the sun. …….There are three locations with the name Tayopa, and all are located within área inhabited by the Jova group. It is highly unlikely that that name would be found or applied to a place outside that geographical área and timeframe, although is could be posible as for the word Potosi. The town of San Luis Potosi, in Mexico named after the town of Potosi,Bolivia, identifying with rich silver discoveries, Cerro Rico in Bolivia and Cerro San Pedro in San Luis. And there in Potosi, in Illinois ,I think named after the lead deposits worked there.
So, relating to the famous Tayopa legend,and the mines associated with it. We can connect the stories with three sites ,and by no coinsidence ,all are within the geographical boundry of what is known to be Jova territory.
The site that corresponds to the map published in Frank Dobies book, is the Tayopa ¨discovered¨ by Don Jose. It is easily found on the Sierra Obscura map 1: 50000 scale printed by INEGI,the Mexican mapping agency. If there is any existing or remaining treasure there ,this is undoubtably the place. What is known reference to any treasure is that in the early part o f the last century a bell was discovered and eventually sold in the city of Hermisillo,Sonora for silver value, It was marked with the word Tayopa and dated. It was written up in the local newspaper. Also about 15 years ago several silver bars stamped and dated with the word Tayopa, were offered on the internet for sale. It was rumored that these were some of the remaining bars that were held by the same family decendents that brought out and sold the bell. Did these people find and remove all of what was reported by the priest in Dobies book? Don Jose says there are sealed tunnels there still, and that the locals know where. What it will take is a great amount of investment, drones,GPR, and excavation equipment. Anyone interested would also need a good lawyer and an airtight argeement with the property owners,it is they who have 100% legal ownership to any treasure found on their property. Posession of a mining claim on any land in Mexico,gives you no legal rights to anything but minerales. The only strategy by claiming is to extract treasure under the guise of actual mining. This is also the site pursued by Flipper based on his findings in Spain. Leaving out from cerro Minaca…… From a geological perspective this área is of little signficance for mineral wealth although there are many rich prospects and operating mines 12 to 20 miles east.
The second site ,and the one´¨ discovered¨ by Adam Westwood, is actually the mines of the Holy Trinity, La Santisima Trinidad, which many believed was the true Tayopa. Reason being is that the village closest to it is named Guadalupe de Tayopa. And there are vestiges of many silver mines and workings, There is also the remains of a small church foundation. And massive slag piles. Essentially everything fits to suggest this could be the Tayopa of legend ,especially if the information used is the account to access the site from Mulatos. But historical research confirms that this is not correct and the person giving his account identified the mines with the village nearby. At any rate it would be interesting to use GPR equipment in and around the church foundation. Tayopa is not the only treasure.
The other site named Tayopa in east and south of Huachinera Sonora, this site was discovered by John D Mitchell, an avid treasure hunter and researcher for Desert Southwest magazine and author of several treasure books. He did report finding some silver bars at the site. But this place was named Tayopa but that is a ll it has in conection with ¨the¨Tayopa, and was actually worked many years later in the mid 1800s.There is a book describing the location and mining difficulties in the rare books section in Tucson at the University .
Finally ,the lead that says the bells of Tayopa could be heard from Guaynopa. Again we have someone reporting in error. In the área of Guaynopa ,which when discovered,due to the richness of the silver deposits ,it was said to be another Tayopa, and shortly thereafter and close by there was an equally rich silver Discovery and a small mining village sprang up,it was given the name Guaynopita, meaning little Guaynopa. It was from Guaynopita that the chapel bells could be heard in Guaynopa. This site is valid in that the existing mineralization is of economic importance.
Old reports speak of richness in different terms than we might understand today. It was commonly refering to metal purity and ease of extraction, not volumen or ounces per ton. Some of the veins were no more than 4 inches wide. The goal was ore that could be extracted by direct smelting. Most all mines were hydrothermal veins of oxide ores and worked out at surface. This was the case until the patio process was invented in 1554. But the primitative small mines in remote áreas only pursued oxides .
The impact o f the Tayopa legend has been phenominal in my opinion especially in relation to its assumed value and risk to reward potential based on factual information. As there are many other treasures more documented and more valuable here in Mexico. But that being said, I hope Don Joses´ family will be able to maintain due diligence on the área and not loose the claim and maybe someday some advertureous treasure hunter will give it a real going over to see if anything can be found........... I am just volunteering information ,hopefully to help others. I have no interest in Tayopa. And no desire to defend what I have written. It is for anyone to apply to their search if they think it is valid and will benefit.
 

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A very interesting post! Westwood's book is an excellent source as it combines scholarly research with hard-won knowledge earned in the field.

Please share with us the name and author: "There is a book describing the location and mining difficulties in the rare books section in Tucson at the University."

And thank you for your post!

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo
 

At that time I was working for a mineral exploration company, headquartered in Sonora. My supervisor bought about 20 books related to Sonora and its mining history that was on a bookcase in our camp trailer. I guess I read them all over the three year period I was there. Thats when I read about Tayopa. This was some 40 years ago. Of course, it was intriguing, but a ll of the information was second hand and no sources were given. The scientist in me decided to do two things, one approach this treasure problem in a formal way ,and two, being bilingual, see what factual references ,if any ,I could find coming from Mexican sources,that could support my hypothesis. I did all of this in my free time, it took me to the National Archives, the Church Archives in Durango, Church archives in Compostela, Nayarit, the College of the Jesuits in Chihuahua, and so on. …….. I actually did no research from the American side but I did come across this reference ,found in the University of Arizona special collections in Tucson,Az. I do not remember the name. I only jotted down the Latitude and Longitude it gave for a mine named Tayopa. You will have to adjust for magnetic deviation. If I remember correctly it mentioned that the ore was rich,but the metallurgy was difficult. It stated that the German process was used to obtain the silver. I just found the call number by some small miracle, as I didnt think I still had it. The book was dated 1864. M9791 C56C is the call number I wrote. …………… I pursued the Tayopa problem or equation ,as I call it until I had my answer and moved on. ….. I went on to use my algorithm, if you will, to solve other treasure problems ,which is my pre -requisite to deciding if a target is real enough to invest in and the risk to reward is justafiable.
 

lilorphanannie:

The book is:

Compañía Restauradora del Mineral de la Cieneguita, or, Cieneguita Company [New York : Dodge & Grattan, Steam Book and Job Printers; 1864] 24 p.

Table of Contents:

Report of Robert L. D'Aumaile, Esq., mining engineer and geologist -- Letter from Juan A. Robinson, Esq., one of the owners of the Real de la Cieneguita, to S. F. Butterworth, Esq. -- Letter from major John A. Freaner and col. John C. Hays, to S. F. Butterworth, Esq. -- Letter from Jno. A. Peck, Esq., San Francisco, to W. M. B. Hartley, Esq.


Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo
 

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Please, if anyone does read that book, let me know if it indeed has the comments about the Tayopa mine. I say this because, at the time we were working at La Cienega, and this book or report appears to be about La Cienega. We tracked down all of the historical info available on that property. So I may have given you guys the wrong call number. It was a long time ago, I do have the co ordinates for that tayopa if anyone is interested, I was hesitant to post them only because of the personal responsability I would feel . Meaning if anyone decided to go there ,and something bad happened. Anyone going into these places will need a local person to accompany them, a good level of proficency in Mexican spanish and culture and good outdoor and horse skills.
 

something you should take note of is the Church i found may turn out to be a Jesuit Church build on a much older Franciscan church site ......from the late 1200's early 1300's ..the search is still ongoing...i believe a few of the data details from the older church and legends got mix into the Jesuit legends . i went back to the rock wall painting .. i found a account of one legend that can be confirmed by historical evidence ..the timeline overlap each other .. its taken about 25 Years to understand how they overlap ,but is that not treasure hunting ...lol
 

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