Placing a value on the French monument removed by the Spanish and lost at Sea.

[Global Marine Exploration]

Can anyone help us put a value on the monument GME discovered last year? We have documentation proving this is the monument that was placed near Fort Caroline in 1562, it was later removed by the Spanish when the fort was captured and lost at sea.

We need a professional opinion/appraisal on the value of this monument as well as the bronze cannons that we discovered last year. Attached is a little info.

 

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[Global Marine Exploration]

A few more pictures

 

[Black Duck]

Video could help also

A few more pictures

View attachment 1445559View attachment 1445560View attachment 1445561

U tube video I hope this works

 

[Black Duck]

Oh
Sorry Bill I did not see you already had it on here, my bad

 

[seekerGH]

Looking at the video, my first suggestion would be next dive, turn off the blower first!

Would be interesting to see where the other 3 monuments that were taken back to France are located, if they even remain. This would help with what the relative importance has been given to the monument.

Are you able to locate the rest of the monument, or just this piece?

Looking up the Ribault Column...the plaque does not appear it was made of stone..

"Ribault landed near the St. Augustine area. As he sailed further north, he found a river that was called the St. Johns River. Because he did not like the river's Spanish name, he renamed it the "River of May." (Today, it is known again as the St. Johns River.) At the mouth of the river, Ribault built a stone monument to mark his visit (see picture at left) and claim it for France.

Ribault constructed a five-sided column featuring a bronze shield bearing the cost-of-arms of Queen Catherine, the very woman who had opposed the mission. Curious Timucuans under Chief Saturiba visited the Huguenot encampment. The French presented the Timucuans with gowns of blue embroidery. In return, Saturiba stocked the French with maize, beans, cucumbers, and fish. Ribault wrote glowingly of the friendliness of the contact."



http://www.pbchistoryonline.org/middle-school-lessons/009-Ribault/009-Ribault1.htm

 

[Darren in NC]

Bobby, I can't imagine putting a price on a one-of-a-kind monument. Curious - was it broken or cut up? The painting version is clearly longer than what GME found.

As far as the cannon, it will depend on its markings, size, founder, condition, etc. Here is a site where they are selling from 12-30k. I have heard of higher prices, but I think 20-30k is average.

Original 1780 Bronze 6-Pounder Saker Cannon with Oak Naval Carriage ima-usa.com

Fascinating finds. Is Fla pushing for "in-situ" or is anyone planning to recover these?

 

[Smithbrown]

Try a respectable auctioneer. I would try Bonhams, their London office sold the Visser collection a few years ago which included good bronze cannon. Bonhams : Locations

 

[Jolly Mon]

 

[Black Duck]

Looking at the video, my first suggestion would be next dive, turn off the blower first!

Would be interesting to see where the other 3 monuments that were taken back to France are located, if they even remain. This would help with what the relative importance has been given to the monument.

Are you able to locate the rest of the monument, or just this piece?

Looking up the Ribault Column...the plaque does not appear it was made of stone..

"Ribault landed near the St. Augustine area. As he sailed further north, he found a river that was called the St. Johns River. Because he did not like the river's Spanish name, he renamed it the "River of May." (Today, it is known again as the St. Johns River.) At the mouth of the river, Ribault built a stone monument to mark his visit (see picture at left) and claim it for France.

Ribault constructed a five-sided column featuring a bronze shield bearing the cost-of-arms of Queen Catherine, the very woman who had opposed the mission. Curious Timucuans under Chief Saturiba visited the Huguenot encampment. The French presented the Timucuans with gowns of blue embroidery. In return, Saturiba stocked the French with maize, beans, cucumbers, and fish. Ribault wrote glowingly of the friendliness of the contact."

View attachment 1445856 View attachment 1445857

http://www.pbchistoryonline.org/middle-school-lessons/009-Ribault/009-Ribault1.htm

Seeker the shield was not bronze, it was made of stone marble this we have documentation of, what you have is not a real refernce,if you do you research you will see that 5 came over in 1562, 3 went back to France in 1562 and one was captured in 1564 and taken to Spain, that leaves one, the one GME found,
All what I say I have original ref, source

 

[Black Duck]

This piece was setting on a round pedestal we think, that set on a column we beleave as we also found the pedestal it may set on,

You are off on the cannon by hundreds of thousands for sure
this is from 1548 with kings info as well as wife and girl friend, and because of where and the story

Thanks Darren but we need a professional to help us with this

i believe we are looking at 50-60 mil for what we have found already, look up what has sold like this

Also Seeker "FYI" if we would have turned blowers off we would not have been able to see, the water is mirky there

 

[Black Duck]

Just another note, marble weights a lot, so it would have been in sections not one piece, nothing we have found so far is broke,
Also the area is under surveillance, and off limits and we are in Federal court with France and the State of Florida right now. over this issue, so be advised that you will get boarded if anyone trying to dive sites

 

[Salvor6]

"Also the area is under surveillance, and off limits and we are in Federal court with France and the State of Florida right now. over this issue, so be advised that you will get boarded if anyone trying to dive sites."

Do they watch it at night?

 

[Black Duck]

"Also the area is under surveillance, and off limits and we are in Federal court with France and the State of Florida right now. over this issue, so be advised that you will get boarded if anyone trying to dive sites."

Do they watch it at night?

What do u think ?
I would not want to be the one to find out this is no game,

 

[smokeythecat]

This could be a matter of what the market will bear. First, find the market and 99% of the whole world would not be able to afford this. There must be antiquities appraisers who know their stuff. The major museums would know.

 

[Darren in NC]

You are off on the cannon by hundreds of thousands for sure...

After 25 years of doing this, I hear this all the time. Mel Fisher and Odyssey do the same thing - they always believe their finds are worth zillions and overstate their value. I do hope a "professional" will tell you otherwise. I really do.

Smithbrown above mentioned a respectable auctioneer like Bonhams. He knows what he speaks of. Even extremely rare cannon from the 1600s don't fetch hundreds of thousands...

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/14956/lot/189/?category=list

Good luck.

 

[Smithbrown]

I have not heard of any cannon going for more than a million, or even close. Some royal armours have, but not artillery. The trouble with cannons is that there are not many collectors pushing up the price on them. Museums in Europe have got their funding reduced. so you are looking at New World Museums and collectors. And if you flood the market with twenty or thirty "rare cannons" the price will automatically come down. In England our Museums ethic code forbad us from giving valuations- also tell them to go to reputable dealer- and even to identify objects if they were going for sale. I do not know if US museums have the same codes. The Getty might be interested in your French monument, if no local museums want to be involved.

 

[Black Duck]

After 25 years of doing this, I hear this all the time. Mel Fisher and Odyssey do the same thing - they always believe their finds are worth zillions and overstate their value. I do hope a "professional" will tell you otherwise. I really do.

Smithbrown above mentioned a respectable auctioneer like Bonhams. He knows what he speaks of. Even extremely rare cannon from the 1600s don't fetch hundreds of thousands...

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/14956/lot/189/?category=list

Good luck.

Darren Thanks for your input" but how many items have you sold that was a treasure, GME sold a 42 inch bronze cannon with no precise origin for $46,000

This one cannon from 1548 off the Cape with the story will bring close to one million dollars, the others will bring high price too. the Monument 50-60 mil possable.

Do your homework and look up auction of like, maybe this will help you understand

But GME needs a professional opinion, they are out there, we just need some help finding them.

Do you guys understand the story, these items, not the ship,(changed the history of Florida), because there is no proof where this ship came from or what country it is related too. But we do know where this monument came from and are sure the same on the cannon. ( not in French control at the time of sinking)

When we did the pewter auction we got top Dollar because we went to the right people in the right pace and it was worth what we sold it for.
This will be no different, although we would rather settle with the State, they have turned down our offer to settle so the other to settle will be 3 times the amount we offer the first time in 5 months once France is out the way. And yes I know the State and the arches are listening.

 

[signumops]

Hey Black Duck: You might want to contact Steve Condella in Key West regarding your guns. He's known as the Cannon King of Key West. He has a huge collection of bronze guns and goes all over the globe chasing them down.


Meanwhile, I don't think most of our fellow travelers here on this forum are completely aware of just how momentous your discoveries are. The guns, especially the one I have examined in detail via your U/W video, are remarkable. The monument itself is, in my book, priceless. The combination makes them a national treasure worthy of the Smithsonian for certain, or the Fort Caroline National Monument at the very least. These are not common in any sense, but represent, very firmly, the first non-secular drama in North America, very well documented, with dimensions in Europe and the New World simultaneously.


I've added some illustrations of what the actual monument might have looked like based on Bill Seliger's drawing and the further description by Guilliame Rouffi as recorded by the Spanish and handed down to us by Jeanette Thurber-Connor. The markups on the gun are from a similar cannon recorded by Mendel Peterson in one of his Green Book volumes.


At the Fort Caroline National Monument there are two bronze guns, neither having provenence with the Huguenots. One is from the San Martin (Green Cabin Wreck), and the other one I have no info on, but neither have the obvious details as your own. While the monument(s) have been recreated by the DAR, and stylized by DeBry's second-hand illustrations of Le Moyne's work, NOBODY has actually seen one until now, 450 years later! Lots of folks have looked, but nobody had found them/it. BTW, DeBry's illustrations were published in 1589 I think, several decades after the fact, and so far as I know, Le Moyne's actual drawings have yet to be found.


I think the GME success has driven the artifact salvage/shipwreck recovery agenda hosted by the high-ground moralists over a cliff. Shall Americans suffer because of their philosophy, or shall Americans persist as they have in the past relying on solid scientific methods and proven tactics? It seems that the only argument here is one centered upon motives rather than actual results. Do the work. Get paid for the work. Key word is "WORK"; not "PRAYER", not "PHILOSOPHY", not "OPINION". Florida government has tied itself up with its own rope and I don't really believe that those of us being governed had any intentional part in making that rope.


When Drake sacked St. Augustine, he noted five French cannon at the fort. De Gourges made no remarks about the cannon at the Spanish occupation of the former Fort Caroline that I know of.


BTW, I still think the Triniti is at Pad 39B.

 

[Salvor6]

Terry in your illustration of the cannon I noticed there are no dolphins. Was this common for that type cannon?

 

[signumops]

Terry in your illustration of the cannon I noticed there are no dolphins. Was this common for that type cannon?

No, actually this was not the common practice, however, I think these guns were primarily for field artillery instead of deck guns. Maybe that would make a difference. Don't know as an expert might. If you check out the Peterson Green Books, you do see guns of that period without dolphins or lifting eyes per se. This gun in the drawing also has a fitting on the cascabel for the use of an elevator screw, which was unusual for a deck gun that I know of. Also, I assume the gun was laying top up as there are sights and a touch hole in plain view, however, I am not sure anybody has actually seen the bottom side of this gun, so we can not be certain what other doo dads might be attached to it.